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Question: Why is kita not mentioned in Tagalog tutorials? - Page 2

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Author Photo akosikoneho
Aug 11 2020, 6:16am CST ~ 3 years, 8 mos ago. 
@jkos
 
From Sundita:
 
Furthermore, Kapampangan has a set of merged pronouns that occur with the 3rd person singular & plural pronouns. Tagalog and its Central Philippine cousins typically have one that represents ko ikaw. Tagalog has kita, Bikol has taka, Cebuano has tikaw, Tausug has ta kaw, etc.
 
From S&O:
 
media.discordapp.net /attachments/3123559 07042279435/74270026 4535883776/unkn
 
media.discordapp.net /attachments/3123559 07042279435/74270080 5919997982/unkn
 
"it's correct: because ko and ka are monosyllabic, they both kinda fill the same slot next to the verb
so they combine to become kita
but when ko and ikaw occur together, ikaw doesn't share that slot with ko anymore"
 
From a a linguist I know ^ he remarked it was correct but weird.
 
I still think ko ka is wrong. If I'm feeling up to it I may dig in to some older tagalog grammars that Sundita twitter.com/csundita ?lang=en cites. I think he has some 1600s tagalog grammars that could shed some light. I'm curious for myself at this point, I just can't see it mapping on to ko ka but that is a gut feeling. (not that any of these sources are 100% correct or not at times)
 
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Author Photo akosikoneho
Aug 11 2020, 6:21am CST ~ 3 years, 8 mos ago. 
> Sasampalin ka nila.
Sasampalin ka niya.
Sasampalin ka ni Jennelyn.

It works in ang phrases (as noted above)
 
Ikaw ang sasampalin nila / Ikaw ang kanilang sasampalin
 
It also works with the inversion marker ay
 
Sasampalin ka'y ikaw
 
But none of these are 1:1 matches for ka niya ka nila.
 
Seems like kita for ko ikaw (or ko ka) was well into usage by the 1800s
 
Tutuluñgang quitá ñgayóng magpalalâ
nang hapdî sa púsong di co ma-apulà,
namatáy si Iná ay laquing dálitâ
itó sa búhay co ang unang umiuà.
 
From Florante at Laurent
 
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Author Photo jkos Badge: AdminBadge: SupporterBadge: Serious SupporterBadge: VIP Supporter
Aug 11 2020, 6:27am CST ~ 3 years, 8 mos ago. 
This pattern just seems very clear to me...
Sasampalin ka nila.
Sasampalin ka niya.
Sasampalin ka ni Jennelyn.
* * Sasampalin ko ka. * *
 
...is the logical form. It’s wrong, of course, “kita” is required for proper grammar.
 
But again, if we are teaching people, it is not wrong (while teaching) to say “kita” in the case above is replacing a wrong “ko ka”...
 
To tell a student that “kita” in the example above is replacing “ko ikaw” is weird, since in a student’s purview “ikaw” is nowhere on the logical horizon...
 
I just can’t see it any other way.
 
(Of course, inverted forms are different and your examples are sound)
 
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Author Photo akosikoneho
Aug 11 2020, 6:50am CST ~ 3 years, 8 mos ago. 
Ka doesn't follow the pattern though. No other pronoun has two distinct ang forms. It doesn't seem far fetched for it to be ko ikaw.
 
mahal ko siya
mahal ko sila
 
> To tell a student that “kita” in the example above is replacing “ko ikaw” is weird, since in a student’s purview “ikaw” is nowhere on the logical horizon...
 
I've only ever heard ko ka from mormons.
 
S&O (the stickied grammar) says that its ng form + ang form
 
Mo ako, ko siya etc
 
Ka here breaks the mold, I'm not sure I would extend the seemingly logical pattern. I see the pattern, and I understand why it is listed how it is listed (and clearly as we poke around others agree and disagree with both of us). I wouldn't map it to ko ka (however many others would).
 
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Author Photo Diegocorry Badge: SupporterBadge: Serious Supporter
Aug 11 2020, 7:13am CST ~ 3 years, 8 mos ago. 
For what it’s worth: in Ilonggo there is no parallel word for “kita” in the sense of “I __ you”. The equivalent would be “ko ikaw” (e.g. “ginhatagan ko ikaw ...“ “I gave you....”). I have never heard or seen any instance of “ko ka” in Ilonggo.
 
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Author Photo akosikoneho
Aug 11 2020, 7:26am CST ~ 3 years, 8 mos ago. 
@Diegocorry Right, it is ko ikaw in Cebuano too... but these are separate Philippine languages from Tagalog. Gipangga taka, gipangga ko ikaw (most common in Boholano), and pinangga ka nahu (normative Cebuano pinalangga ka (ka)nako).
 
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Author Photo jkos Badge: AdminBadge: SupporterBadge: Serious SupporterBadge: VIP Supporter
Aug 11 2020, 7:54am CST ~ 3 years, 8 mos ago. 
@Diegocorry @akosikoneho
 
Just to clarify again, since it’s been brought up twice, I’m in no way am saying “ko ka” is correct...
 
I guess some of this comes down to a conceptualization of “ka” and “ikaw”. In my mind, “ka” is the norm, and “ikaw” is used in limited cases that I have internal rules about.
I have never heard a rule about why “Sasamaplin ko xxxx.” ...might inject “ikaw” rather than “ka” into that sentence. In fact, putting “ikaw” in there leaves me scratching my head as to Why...especially since all the other pronoun combinations in the “sampalin” examples use “ka” as the ANG pronoun. The S&O quoted also seems to have them conceptualizing “kita” as a “ko ka” combo. Now there may be a historical or grammatical reason for it once being common as “ko ikaw”, but the rule or history is relatively obscure. Given that...it seems appropriate to say to beginners that “kita” replaces the wrong “ko ka,” or “ko ikaw,” as a practical way to conceptualize what is going on.
 
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Author Photo AMBoy Badge: SupporterBadge: Serious SupporterBadge: VIP Supporter
Aug 11 2020, 5:12pm CST ~ 3 years, 8 mos ago. 
So "Sasampalin ko ikaw" would be valid?
 
Where on this site can I learn about "ko ikaw" rules? I'm kinda more interested in the fact you can even use ikaw like this.
 
I kinda agree with the above poster how can you have a rule that replaces something that's not even correct, and with no mention of what is a correct form (that it can replace)?
 
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Author Photo Bituingmaykinang
Aug 11 2020, 5:56pm CST ~ 3 years, 8 mos ago. 
@AMBoy in "informal speech", it seems to be valid (academically, probably not. But there are lots of words used daily by Filipinos that aren't recognized by the KWF). But from time to time, you'd hear people say "ko ikaw" instead of kita, but as I said earlier, it's considered nowadays as child speak.
 
As @akosikoneho pointed earlier, some songs use "ko ikaw" like "Gaano ko ikaw kamahal". Let me see if I can find media content that uses "ko ikaw" instead of kita. But I never heard "ko ka" to "replace" kita.
 
I'd like to bring up though that kita as a pronoun is not always "I verb you". In some cases, it means "you are my ___". Kapitbahay kita. Kaklase kita. Kaaway kita.
 
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Author Photo jkos Badge: AdminBadge: SupporterBadge: Serious SupporterBadge: VIP Supporter
Aug 11 2020, 8:28pm CST ~ 3 years, 8 mos ago. 
This is turning into a weird rabbit hole, no offense @akosikoneho. ; )
 
You can construct a dozen simple example “sampalin” sentences where “I” am the slapper, and the pronoun is always “ko.”
 
You can construct a dozen simple example “sampalin” sentences where the “you” receiver of the slap is always “ka.”
 
I’m hard pressed to create ANY other verb-first, simple, non-inverted “sampalin” example sentences that use “ikaw” as the slap receiver, other than the single instance we’re debating...
 
Why is it “ka” in every other single instance and not this one? There may be some reason, but it doesn’t naturally follow that “ka” should switch to “ikaw” in this case...there has to be some external rule or norm that makes it so. Bituingmaykinang and akosikoneho have given some evidence to that effect, which is interesting.
 
I’m not really making any argument here other than, that as a method of teaching, it’s a good idea to tell people...
 
“Don’t use “ko ka” or “ko ikaw” in this kind of structure where you might be tempted to. Use “kita” instead.”
 
(this goes for the simple cases of course, in more complex sentence structures it’s something else...”Gusto ko na ikaw ang blahblahblah”, for example).
 
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Author Photo jkos Badge: AdminBadge: SupporterBadge: Serious SupporterBadge: VIP Supporter
Aug 11 2020, 8:33pm CST ~ 3 years, 8 mos ago. 
And just try me, I’m going to beat this bleepity bleeping horse to death until you see things my way.
 
charot. ; )
 
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Author Photo primesgenato
Aug 11 2020, 9:43pm CST ~ 3 years, 8 mos ago. 
This is quite a bizarre thread. What exactly is the goal here? To make jkos concede and remove all "ko ka" references? Really???
 
Everybody in this thread seems pro "ko ikaw", and against jkos. Not so. I 110% agree with jkos, cos that's the most logical thinking process for a Tagalog student.
 
I'm with jkos. "Kita" makes more sense as a "ko ka" replacement (which is WRONG, in case somebody brings this up yet again). That's how Tagalog Reference Grammar, and Essential Tagalog Reference, describe it. Don't the most famous grammar books have any gravitas and precedent anymore?
 
Another thing. Just an outsider's observation. Every time a learner asks a Tagalog question, jkos always answers directly and empathically, from the POV of a student. He gives the most helpful replies. That's the way I expect a site dedicated to learning Tagalog should reply. Some of the advanced members however ...
 
For example, I just read how akosikoneho would prefer to have "stative verb" replace the "adjective" category on this site. And now we have this "ko ikaw" recommendation. Those two site recommendations are pretty confusing for Tagalog students. I don't support those recommendations at all.
 
Nothing personal, akosikoneho. Presumably you're more into the linguistics side of things. That's cool. Most of us however, just wanna learn how to speak basic Tagalog.
 
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Author Photo AMBoy Badge: SupporterBadge: Serious SupporterBadge: VIP Supporter
Aug 11 2020, 9:47pm CST ~ 3 years, 8 mos ago. 
This is quite a bizarre thread. What exactly is the goal here? To make jkos concede and remove all "ko ka" references? Really??? Everybody in this thread seems pro "ko ikaw", and against jkos. Not so. I 110% agree with jkos, cos that's the most logical thinking process for a Tagalog student. I'm with jkos. "Kita" makes more sense as a "ko ka" replacement (which is WRONG, in case somebody brings this up yet again). That's how Tagalog Reference Grammar, and Essential Tagalog Reference, describe it. Don't the most famous grammar books have any gravitas and precedent anymore? Another thing. Just an outsider's observation. Every time a learner asks a Tagalog question, jkos always answers directly and empathically, from the POV of a student. He gives the most helpful replies. That's the way I expect a site dedicated to learning Tagalog should reply. Some of the advanced members however ... For example, I just read how akosikoneho would prefer to have "stative verb" replace the "adjective" category on this site. And now we have this "ko ikaw" recommendation. Those two site recommendations are pretty confusing for Tagalog students. I don't support those recommendations at all. Nothing personal, akosikoneho. Presumably you're more into the linguistics side of things. That's cool. Most of us however, just wanna learn how to speak basic Tagalog.
 
@primesgenato You can become a patron here:
 
www.patreon.com/bePa tron?u=668589
 
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Author Photo primesgenato
Aug 11 2020, 9:56pm CST ~ 3 years, 8 mos ago. 
Meaning? I can only express my opinion if I donate money?
 
I'm well aware that jkos has a patreon. I'll donate on my own terms. Not because some internet guy asks me to.
 
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Author Photo AMBoy Badge: SupporterBadge: Serious SupporterBadge: VIP Supporter
Aug 11 2020, 10:34pm CST ~ 3 years, 8 mos ago. 
@primesgenato No, of course not, feel free to share all opinions ( I don' t make the rules) but with such a strong love for the site, that many of us share, I just wanted to make sure you knew there were options to express it in a tangible way. Once you sign up you can actually share opinions directly to JKOS on the official Discord. See you there bro!
 
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