by: Jimmy329 Jun 15 2022, 10:10am CST ~ 1 week, 7 days ago.
Inom and Kain - are they really good examples ?
I wonder, why most Tagalog textbooks use the roots "INOM" and "KAIN" to explain tense and focus ...
To my taste they are the WORST choices one could possibly take ...
INOM - resolves to the verbs uminom (actor focussed) and ininom (object focussed) and inumin (object focussed)
I never really understood the difference between ininom and inumin ... But what is more important: maybe it is not such a good idea to use a verb where the root "o" switches to "u" as an example for BEGINNERS ...
KAIN - to my taste the "pinaka-worst" example ... the root ends with -IN ... which normally indicates an -IN verb ... but this is not true of course: the root resolves to kumain (actor focussed) and kinain (object focussed) ...
Both verbs end with -IN but only the second one is object focussed ...
And besides: the verb kain starts with KA- ... which does not make it a good candidate for an example ... kakain is the future .... whereas kakakain is the recent past ... just to make things a bit more confusing ...
The word KAIN ... starts with KA- and ends with -IN ... which is the worst choice I could ever think of, when it comes to explain tense and focus !
Do we have to rewrite Tagalog textbooks ... ? Just using less confusing examples would make life a lot more easy ...
What in God's name has possed teachers to use INOM and KAIN as examples for beginner Tagalog lessons .... !
If anybody should be interested in these kind of thoughts, just let me know ... Otherwise ignore me ...
BoraMac Jun 15 2022, 9:42pm CST ~ 1 week, 6 days ago.
What Tagalog textbook? What is the original publication date?
They are old, formalistic without a notion of modern Tagalog. No native is going to write a throughly modern Tagalog text BECAUSE that would invovle teaching less than PROPER Tagalog...and no Filipino will teach NON-PROPERLY.
Tagalog is often taught so as to facilitate the transition to ENGLISH as a SECOND LANGUAGE with a bunch of English notions (e.g. active-passive voices) that really are not necessary for Tagalog.
There is a place for a FOREIGNER text to teach modern Tagalog for FOREGNERS... who can get there?
Jimmy329 Jun 16 2022, 12:36am CST ~ 1 week, 6 days ago.
@jkos - maybe I have expressed myself a bit missleading about the problem with "inom" ...
Infinitive and past are the same for UM-verbs:
uminom (infinitive), uminom (past)
But this is NOT so for IN-verbs:
inumin (infinitive), ininom (past)
So in contrast to UM-Verbs, ininom is NOT an infinitive ...
And combined with the change from "o" to "u" this can be quite confusing for a beginner:
UMinom ... inUMin ... they both contain UM but only the first one is an UM conjugation infinitive ... this is why I think, that "inom" is not the best example of all and this is what I wanted to point out ...
I agree with you ... I did not find a real good Tagalog textbook so far ... some of them are even terrible ... some are better, but for my taste they are often going much too much into detail at a very early stage, while other parts are completely missing, the concept is not stringent ... And it's the same with grammar books .... It's a pity ... because Tagalog is such a nice and interesting language ... but I think it's quite hard to learn because of the lack of good textbooks ...
The only positive aspect I found so far, is the online DICTIONARY in this site ... Compared to some printed dictionaries, that I have tried, it is amazingly GOOD ... and really a big help !
Jimmy329 Jun 17 2022, 5:04am CST ~ 1 week, 5 days ago.
Thanks for your comments. Although I have the impression that not EVERYBODY is interested in that discussion ... and maybe I am not really understood in my quest to learn Tagalog grammar.
My personal grammar book starts with UM-verbs, that have an IN-form as well ... this is one of the most frequent stituations in Tagalog language.
These verb are mostly regular ... although there are many exeptions. And I think most grammar books fall short in using verbs as examples that have some kind of special rules ... instead of just choosing examples WITHOUT any irregularities:
gamit (root) - gumamit - to use / gamitin - to use something: gumamit / ginamit (past) gawa (root) - gumawa - to do / ginawa - to do something: gumawa / ginawa (past) hiram (root) - humiram - to borrow / hiramin - to borrow something / humiram / hiniram (past)
Its a clear and simple structure: Insert UM to for the actor focussed (AF) verb ... add or insert IN to form the object focussed (OF) verb. Use ang pronouns for AF verbs, use ng pronouns for OF verbs
gamit - gUMamit ako - I used ... gINamit ko - was used by me
Simple and clear ... And once this is understood well, we could then head on for the various exeptions from the rules ...
bili (root) - bumili - to buy / bilhin - to buy something (not "biliin" - "i" is replace by an "h")
akyat (root) - umakyat - to climb / akyatin - to climb something - umakyat / iniakyat (past) (infix IN changes to Prefix INI, when a root starts with a vowel)
inom (root) - uminom - to drink / inumin - to drink something - uminon / ininom (past) (how many exeptions do you think there are? )
The list of exeptions is LONG ... so I think, some Tagalog roots (like "inom") should not be called REGULAR any more (although most grammar books do !)
I think, it would make learning a lot easier, when text books would deal with the strictly "REGULAR" cases first ... and then explain all the exeptions from the general rules ...
mhh ... maybe this helps some people learning Tagalog grammar ... if not ... just ignore me ...
I think inom and kain are good examples for beginners especially when introducing the more nuanced aspects of Tagalog.
Kumain ako ng isda - I ate fish Kinain ko ang isda - I ate the fish Kinain ako ng isda - The fish ate me
Then: nakikain, ipinakain, ikinain, nagkainan, kinainan, pakain, and other 1000 possible verb conjugations.
The -in- and -um- have a lot to it even if the verbs are regular. The meaning can change just by tweaking the ang/ng and pronouns.
Kain and Inom can be used a lot when demostrating the many nuances of the language.
My advice is, be patient with Tagalog. It has a lot of features that have no Indo-European equivalent. For one, thinking of aspects are "tense" as a beginner is erronous. Because "future tense" (contemplated aspect) in Tagalog can be used to describe something that occured in the past.
Be patient with the language, take the rules as it is, and avoid finding English comparisons (grammar-wise)
If you find kain and inom hard, you might get discouraged once you meet the verbs like akyat. Nagakyat and umakyat have different meanings. Then there's the -in/-an that are not the same but very similar. Tawagan vs tawagin. Sulatan vs sulatin.
The Tagalog grammar is really difficult for an native Indo-European speaker because of grmmatical nuances. It's not like Spanish and English where grammatical.concepts are similar. Tagalog is an entire beast in itself that even linguists themselves are perplexed.
Also, a lot of verbs turn from o to u, e to i. That's even the "easier" part because there's a lot on consonants that morph to m, p, n, etc
Rootword: tanggal. Conjugated form: manananggal
Rootword: Takot. Conjugated form: Nananakot
A lot of patience is needed when learning Tagalog (if you're not a speaker of Austronesian languages)
Jimmy329 Jun 18 2022, 2:12am CST ~ 1 week, 4 days ago.
Yes, there is an abundance of prefixes that can be used to modify Tagalog verbs. And this is one thing that I lack with Tagalog textbooks ... so far I did not find a complete list of all prefixes available ... the list is much longer than what you have mentioned above - I have tried to set up a list myself, but it seems, that it is far from being complete yet ...
I dont quite understand why INOM and KAIN should be so much better qualified than other verbs, when it comes to explain the use of these prefixes. But let's not worrry about that for the time being.
I am also looking for a complete discussion about the "nunances" of verb forms ... e.g. as you have mentioned, some verbs have UM- and MAG-forms ... both forms are actor focussed, but there seems to be a slight difference ... or the difference between I- and -IN / -AN forms of the same root ... as you said ... it requires a lot of patience and to my taste sometimes even some investigation as clear info is not always at hand ...
Jimmy329 Jun 18 2022, 9:19am CST ~ 1 week, 4 days ago.
hehehe ....no, I dont think I get ahead of myself ... this is not the first foreign language that I am learnintg ... Tagalog is an austronesian language ... the constructs cannot be compared to any European language right away .... and so I think it is very important to catch the "spirit" of this language. But in order to do so, I am convinced we have to understand the basic grammar in the first place ... I know very well what I am doing and I am enjoying it a lot ... Of course there is not just ONE way to learn Tagalog ... but at any rate, I believe it requires a solid understandig of the basic grammatical rules ...