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Why do we say "natalo namin sila" = we beat them, since we know

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Author Photo by: georgethan
Jan 24 2021, 9:14am CST ~ 3 years, 2 mos ago. 
Why do we say "natalo namin sila" = we beat them, since we know natalo = actor focus verb. Why not saying: natalo kami nila. I am a little bit confused.
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Author Photo AMBoy Badge: SupporterBadge: Serious SupporterBadge: VIP Supporter
Jan 24 2021, 9:22am CST ~ 3 years, 2 mos ago. 
The focus is who was beaten/defeated. According to the dictionary entry its both actor and object focused.
 
natalo sila = they lost
natalo kami = we lost
natalo namin sila = we beat them / they were beaten by us
natalo kami nila = they beat us / we were beaten by them
 
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Author Photo Giorgio
Jan 28 2021, 5:37pm CST ~ 3 years, 2 mos ago. 
But according to the dictionary, it's "to beat someone" if it's object focus and "to be beaten" if it's actor focus, which in your third example would be
 
object focus
natalo namin sila = we beat them
 
actor focus
natalo namin sila = they were beaten by us
 
which makes sense because it's always the "ang" person that is losing, regardless of perspective.
 
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Author Photo AMBoy Badge: SupporterBadge: Serious SupporterBadge: VIP Supporter
Jan 28 2021, 7:38pm CST ~ 3 years, 2 mos ago. 
@Giorgio Yes you are right, I had my English mixed up there.
 
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Author Photo BoraMac Badge: Supporter
Feb 05 2021, 11:19am CST ~ 3 years, 2 mos ago. 
I get why you are confused. I am confused!
 
ANG pronoun or ANG NOUN phrase ALWAYS MARKS the focus.
 
In an Actor focus affix, marks the ACTOR.
 
In an Object focus affix, marks the receiver of the ACTION (= the object)
 
Think of a speaker (as opposed to written) who codes the verb by the affix, then we just wait to hear the ANG marker to indicate the focus regardless of flexible ordering.
 
So how to determine the marking if the AFFIX is both? Depende depende
 
PeroooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooH
 
talo; AF – ma; OF – in
 
Hawkins, Michael; Gallo-Crail, Rhodalyne. Tagalog Verb Dictionary (Kindle Location 1077). Northern Illinois University Press. Kindle Edition.
 
Actor Focus NA LANG
 
attttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
 
talo; ACT – ma;
 
Ramos, Tersita; Bautista, Maria Lourdes. Handbook of Tagalog Verbs. University of Hawaii Press.
 
Actor Focus NA LANG DINNNNNNNNNNNN
 
Those are facts. What is the reference for the Tagalog.com dictionary?
 
@JKOS ...I have asked many times already. PLease explain
 
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Author Photo jkos Badge: AdminBadge: SupporterBadge: Serious SupporterBadge: VIP Supporter
Feb 05 2021, 12:21pm CST ~ 3 years, 2 mos ago. 
@BoraMac
Source for the dictionary is Filipinos, working from some of ours tools, that draw on several sources.
 
The books you reference are wrong. Or, more likely, just incomplete.
 
Our Tagalog.com "matalo" entry shows multiple example sentences that are Object Focus. The example sentences were written by a native Filipino speaker who is also a published author of Tagalog-language books (poetry, fiction).
 
Lastly, you can use the Corpus tool to verify for yourself:
 
www.tagalog.com/exam plefinder/index.php
 
Choose "All News Articles" - this will only search news articles from well established news organizations.
 
Then search for different variations of...
( matalo / natalo / natatalo / matatalo ) + ( ko / mo / niya / nila / namin / natin )
 
For example, see this link for 17 examples of the newspapers using matalo as object focus:
www.tagalog.com/exam plefinder/?keyword=m atalo+niya%2Cnatalo+ niya%2Cnatatalo
 
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