TPKP 152: Carlo Vergara and TJ Dimacali | Will AI Take Over the CREATIVE INDUSTRY?
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00:00.0
Welcome to the Powerful Comics and Podcast!
00:05.0
Eto, I have two very special guests.
00:12.0
And we're gonna be talking about one of the hottest topics in the art world, diba?
00:18.0
Hindi ko na mapapatagalin ni Pierre.
00:23.0
I'm gonna introduce you to returning guests.
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Some of the favorite guests from this podcast.
00:31.0
Of course, Carlo Vergara and T.J. Di Makali.
00:35.0
So, Carlo Vergara is of course one of the most respected contemporary comic book artists here in the Philippines.
00:45.0
So, artist si Carlo.
00:50.0
And the same ako din, ganoon.
00:53.0
So, T.J. naman is more on the science. He's a science writer from MIT.
00:58.0
So, I intentionally had invited somebody from outside the art world.
01:07.0
So, we're just getting some drinks.
01:14.0
Mayinit, mayinit, mayinit.
01:20.0
Okay, so how are we gonna start this conversation?
01:25.0
So, ako na muna siguro, no?
01:28.0
Kasi I made a post.
01:32.0
I've been seeing posts kasi about this topic for many weeks already.
01:38.0
And I haven't chimed in until a few, about a week ago, diba?
01:44.0
So, kasi tinitingnan ko yung mga posts e. So, syempre maganda magbasa, tapos titingit-tingin ka din yung mga videos.
01:51.0
And then, kasi sa akin kasi, AI art is, ang nakalagay dun sa post ko kasi mayroon akong tweet na in-screen cap ko.
02:03.0
And I said, AI art is not just, kumbaga, it's not just the future of art, it's the future of intelligence.
02:12.0
Kasi artificial intelligence e, diba?
02:14.0
And, to me kasi, AI art is part of the, kumbaga, journey of actual, of AI itself.
02:25.0
Na parang, AI as dystopian or, kumbaga, parang as futuristic, as sci-fi as it sounds.
02:35.0
Is parang learning, kumbaga, it's in infancy stage. And it is learning to become, I don't know, maybe sentient.
02:44.0
Who knows what the final form of AI is gonna be.
02:49.0
And of course, it would need visuals.
02:52.0
So, kumbaga, parang, for me kasi, I think, yung mga gumagawa na itong AI na to, na eventually were also responsible of AI art,
03:05.0
are really just trying to develop AI.
03:07.0
They're not really thinking about AI art itself.
03:11.0
Kumbaga, parang nadaanan lang yun.
03:13.0
So, I'll start with that.
03:16.0
How about you, Carlo?
03:18.0
Okay, so, sige. Magandang hapon po.
03:25.0
Okay, so, I think when it comes to AI art, marami kasing aspeto yan, diba?
03:32.0
Well, there are a number of aspects.
03:33.0
For one thing, tama yung sinabi mo, I heard somewhere, I read one of those videos na,
03:41.0
the entire thing about AI art is really to facilitate yung the quote-unquote education ng artificial intelligence
03:49.0
when it comes to identifying objects for other applications, not necessarily for AI art.
03:57.0
Halimbawa, in like practical applications when it comes to robotics or yung driving,
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yung AI driving, wayfinding, yung ganyan.
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Para malaman niya kung anong tinitingnan niya yung ganyan.
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Pero yung one way to facilitate that is for the AI to identify what exactly is around them
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in whatever shape or form, yung ganyan.
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And therefore, it needs to be able to identify whether an apple is an actual painting
04:27.0
or is it flat, is it 3D, et cetera.
04:31.0
So, may mga ganon.
04:33.0
Ang lumalabas diyan, dalawang issue, essentially.
04:37.0
So, yung pinaka, the most popular issue na lumalabas, number one, is where the datasets are coming from.
04:42.0
So, that's the first.
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And that's where the vitriol is actually coming from the most.
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Diba yung parang the artists are not really consenting that their images will be used.
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Keri lang sana kung public domain images or kung may permiso, yung ganyan.
05:02.0
Pero yung talagang controversial diyan is they're just scraping the web for whatever.
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The other dimension, which is like yung sinasabi mong na AI art is the future, yung ganyan.
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That has something to do now with the aesthetic quality.
05:21.0
Now, yung parang what is art?
05:23.0
Parang what are the limitations and the philosophical aspects of art and aesthetics and all of that.
05:30.0
Which there are people who talk about that.
05:33.0
Yung mga parang what is art?
05:35.0
They bring up Marcel Duchamp who did the urinal in the museum thing.
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Where yung ganyan.
05:43.0
He just placed the urinal in the museum and it's called art.
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And then people have been chiming in about photography as art.
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With a touch of a button, you capture an image and people consider that as art.
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So that's the other side naman.
06:00.0
So kung baka sa akin, ang sa akin lang, ang stand ko dyan is on the legal side, para sa akin generally,
06:10.0
it is correct na if you want to do this thing, this whole dataset thing, parang don't make opt-out the default.
06:21.0
Make the default opt-in.
06:23.0
What do you mean by that?
06:24.0
Parang yung mga, what's the name of that?
06:29.0
Stable diffusion.
06:32.0
Mid-journey ganyan.
06:33.0
Parang the default setting is whatever's there, we'll take.
06:36.0
That's the default setting.
06:38.0
It's not like, so that's the default is opt.
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The default is you have no choice.
06:48.0
Pero sa akin, parang if I think na the conversation will be more lighter or artists will be more accepting,
06:59.0
if from the very beginning, sinabi ng mga companies na ito na, hey, we're developing something,
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maybe you would like to join us in this journey for developing ganyan-ganyan,
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those who are interested, mag-opt-in kayo.
07:12.0
And then we'll tell you what's going on.
07:16.0
We might even say, hey, in this image, this is the percent of your original image that was used, ganyan.
07:23.0
So that would have been interesting, ganyan.
07:25.0
And maybe down the line, it could have been, oh, based on the percentage na ginamit ng original image nyo,
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maybe we can even pay you.
07:34.0
Things like that.
07:35.0
I think if that was how it went from the get-go,
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this conversation about the evil of AI art na ganyan would not be as huge as it is now.
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How about you, DJ?
07:49.0
I actually agree with all of Carlo's points, but also to add to that,
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let's start out first with, since you started on that point, yung intentions ng mga gumawa.
08:02.0
Charitably, I think it would be nice to think,
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I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a researcher.
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I want to develop this AI in the most efficient means possible.
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And hey, here's a slew of data online that I can train it on.
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So I'm hoping, counting on the goodness of people's hearts,
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maybe ganun lang para hindi nila nakita yung ramifications nun.
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But of course, there's also the dark side of that.
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Posible naman talaga na nakita nila, but they chose to be negligent and just run with it.
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We don't know their intentions.
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But that said, I agree with Carlo na from the get-go,
08:39.0
posibli sana na handle na maayos yung pagkalap ng data para hindi magkaroon ng uproar.
08:46.0
Aside from what you mentioned na sana may opt-in rather than opt-out by default.
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To add to the explanation of the opt-in versus opt-out thing,
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it's like when you're buying anything, may terms and conditions.
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Pag opt-out ang default, kumag hindi mo binasa yung terms and conditions,
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automatically by default, assume nila, oh, di ka nag-opt-out.
09:12.0
So ibig sabihin, payag ka sa sinasabi namin.
09:15.0
So there's that danger because most people really don't read,
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or even if they do, they don't understand the implications.
09:21.0
Or they're not aware. Wala sila sa internet.
09:24.0
Exactly. So opt-in is the better path kasi mas informed yung choice mo.
09:33.0
Ang impact naman dun siyempre dun sa kumakalap ng datos
09:37.0
kasi it will create a bottleneck for the information.
09:40.0
Pero yun nga, again, we don't know what was in their heads.
09:43.0
I mean, ako, it's easy for me to say na if I were an industrious researcher,
09:47.0
yes, let's do this ethically.
09:50.0
Even if this is a bottleneck, it's the right thing to do.
09:53.0
Pero di natanong kung anong isip nila.
09:55.0
Another way that could have been done, I think, is,
09:58.0
okay, scrape the entire internet. Fine.
10:02.0
Wala tayo sa usapan ng opt-in, opt-out.
10:05.0
But i-corral mo yung results.
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And for me, that was a big problem, issue for me when all of this came out.
10:13.0
You already scraped the entire internet without consent,
10:17.0
and then you opened up the AI, even to just limited use by the public,
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and you're also selling the results agad-agad.
10:26.0
Teka muna, parang hindi ka na nga humingi ng permiso,
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tapos pinagkikitaan pa yun.
10:32.0
So one way could have, if they really wanted to train these AI fast
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and efficiently with as large dates as possible,
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sige, scrape the internet, go out there, do anything,
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but understand that this is information that wasn't yours to begin with.
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So i-corral mo muna.
10:49.0
And then you could have, I think that was one way it could have been.
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They could have said, okay, we've trained this,
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and then here's where we're going with this,
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and then inform the public on what the AI is capable of doing.
11:00.0
And then unti-unti mo siyang i-roll out.
11:02.0
Pero hindi, it was all, for me, it felt like a train wreck,
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nasabay-sabay lahat.
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Kalap ng data, tapos, oh, look, you can play around with it.
11:11.0
Oh, we're selling the results, diba?
11:13.0
So siyempre, lahat ng tao, parang, oh, teka muna, ano tong nangyayari?
11:18.0
Kaya I think that's also why it's such a hot topic these days
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because like a train wreck, it just happened all of a sudden,
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apparently, to people outside, and we're still grappling with it.
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Speaking of the concept of grappling and pulling away from the concept of creating art,
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it's worth saying na lahat ng mga ganitong disruptive technologies,
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meron talagang discussion na nangyayari all the time.
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We see it when the printing presses came out.
11:48.0
We see it when photography came onto the scene, diba?
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But we also see that later on, nagkakaroon ng,
11:58.0
I don't know if you'd call it harmonization,
12:00.0
but, you know, I mean, things change.
12:02.0
Yeah, they consolidate, diba?
12:03.0
Hanggang ngayon, may kita natin na hindi naman totoo na nawala ang artists
12:09.0
even in light of photography and no matter how photographs develop.
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But there is that period of consolidation and hot discussion,
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and that's what we're going through right now.
12:20.0
Yeah. So, I agree to everything you said.
12:26.0
Meron akong pinost kasi madaling nagalit dun sa isang pinost ko.
12:31.0
I don't think, parang tingin ko, although hindi ko na-express lahat yung mga thoughts ko talaga,
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siguro kakala nung iba is, I'm just okay with it,
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na parang, sige, bahala kayo, huwag na nating pakialaman yan.
12:46.0
My point kasi talaga is, parang, the technology is there.
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It is already invented.
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Whether you hate it or not, it is already there.
12:56.0
It's like inventing the gunpowder, diba?
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Na parang, okay, everybody knew nung they were testing the gunpowder,
13:04.0
especially when they figured out, pwede pala natin gawing canyon to, diba?
13:08.0
So, of course, it scared people.
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Maybe it's not that documented, pero I'm sure it is terrifying.
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It was terrifying.
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But then, people knew also that if they don't utilize that invention,
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somebody else will, diba?
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Parang yung mga kalaban mo, ah, ayaw mong gamitin to kasi mabait ka,
13:27.0
gami na lang, patay kayo sa amin, diba?
13:30.0
The same thing with the atomic bomb and a slew of other inventions that are disruptive.
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And itong AI kasi, I just watched the episode nung proko podcast.
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So, one of the episodes about AI, they invited a guy na hindi rin artist,
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somebody from the AI world na nag-develop.
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Ito ba yung payat na naka-black t-shirt?
14:04.0
And what he said is, basically, parang the developers of AI were not artists,
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and they're just a few people.
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And for some reason, I don't know why, the last...
14:18.0
Hindi nila naisip yung mga artist, diba?
14:20.0
Basically, ganun sinasabi niya, eh.
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Kasi nga, I think, kasi hindi nila iniisip na it is gonna be for artists.
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Iba talaga yung iniisip nila.
14:29.0
But what they were thinking is very philosophical that,
14:34.0
I don't know how exactly, but AI will make everything free.
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Diba? Isa yun sa mga points na sinasabi niya, eh.
14:45.0
And I don't know how they're gonna do that, kasi everything is free.
14:50.0
Kumbaga, that's gonna be a different rabbit hole that we probably don't have time to discuss.
14:57.0
Pero parang, my point is, hindi nila naisip kung ano yung ramifications ng AI for artists.
15:06.0
And it is, to artists, especially those who are just starting, it's terrifying, diba?
15:13.0
Parang, as an artist, Carlo, how did it affect you?
15:21.0
Initially, I think, to answer your question sa simula, I was like, oh that's interesting.
15:30.0
Okay, that's interesting. I tried it out.
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And then, I realized na yun nga, parang, I usually try these things out just to see what the process is.
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And then, it's not really as easy as, diba?
15:43.0
It's not as easy as you prompt it and then it will automatically spit out something glorious and wonderful.
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And you need to, may kutkot na nagaganap in the system itself.
15:55.0
So, I think what really became alarming for a lot of people was how fast the results were getting better.
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That's number one.
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Number two, people were joking about the hands and all of that.
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Pero yun nga, but overall, when people were seeing that the results were getting,
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yung sinasabing na iba, parang, umaan ka ni Vali na, it's so good, it's disturbing, yung mga ganyan.
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And then, the other thing, what also added to that was yun nga, yung parang railroading of things.
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Yung nga, like what you said, in that interview na the AI people were just,
16:47.0
they wanted this objective but they didn't really see this other part coming, yung ganyan.
16:53.0
With that particular interview, so I watched that interview,
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and Proko, for those who are not familiar with Proko, is one of the top art instructors online on YouTube, ganyan.
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And then he actually asked this AI person, parang, you know, that question,
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parang knowing that the datasets were coming from images they don't own,
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will the AI person actually take measures to stop and rethink things?
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And the AI person said he didn't say yes.
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He didn't say yes.
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Parang he was, parang he sort of quasi avoided the question,
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and he was dead set on that ultimate objective, yung ganyan.
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And then, so people were commenting for that video saying,
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parang the problem with a number of these, maybe hindi nila nila lahat,
17:55.0
a problem with a number of these science-driven people is,
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yeah, they're brilliant in their science but not so much in their ethics.
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Which should be part and parcel of the whole science education, yung ganyan.
18:08.0
So, and I think that's the ano, kaya I'm not against, I'm not against the technology.
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I use digital tools right now, yung ganyan, and I'm a teacher in the multimedia arts,
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so definitely the tools are ano.
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I'm excited to see how AI can be used in the industry,
18:32.0
actually, as part of the toolset that we have.
18:37.0
Pero yun nga, parang it's the ethics now behind the development, yung ganyan.
18:43.0
You know, it's pretty much the same ano,
18:46.0
the related topic here would be like yung lab-grown meat, yung ganyan.
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Wherein they use what of the calves, the unborn calves, yung ganyan to create lab-grown meat,
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which is another ethical thing, so that's why ano.
19:06.0
So yun, ultimately it's really the ethics.
19:08.0
I have nothing against the technology, it's just where they source the data sets.
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Kasi hassle talaga na parang, although kasi, let's discuss the different factions nung mga,
19:24.0
kasi I don't think may mga artists talaga na parang,
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Yes! May AI art na!
19:29.0
Diba? Kasi parang, syempre parang,
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as artists, as people who learned and studied art and practices,
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and most of us, parang our livelihoods depend on it,
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parang it really feels unfair kung,
19:52.0
kumbaga I understand that feeling that some people would have.
19:59.0
Diba? Kasi parang, especially dun sa mga parang,
20:03.0
nagpa-prompt lang tapos feeling na artist talaga sila, diba?
20:06.0
So parang, mapapataas kilay ka talaga eh.
20:10.0
So, yung debate na parang, is AI art still art?
20:16.0
Tingin ko parang di naman ganun ka-importante eh.
20:19.0
For me kasi parang AI, parang syang Google eh.
20:24.0
Parang, kasi parang, if you use AI generator, image generator,
20:32.0
kung anong ini-imagine mo,
20:36.0
it's, yung lalabas parang anlayo eh.
20:40.0
Kumbaga parang, it's almost impossible
20:44.0
to come up with an image kung anong iniisip mo, diba?
20:50.0
Kumbaga parang, I do storyboards usually.
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So, I tested parang kung anong instruction dun sa storyboard na gagawin.
21:02.0
I prompted it to the AI to mid-journey.
21:06.0
Mukhang tangi eh, nakakatawa yung ginawa.
21:08.0
Kumbaga nakakatawa talaga.
21:10.0
So, nung nakita ko, ah, okay, so my job is safe.
21:15.0
Kasi, kumbaga hindi niya kayang gawin.
21:18.0
Lalo na kung gagawa ka pa siya, gagawa ka pa ng second frame.
21:22.0
Na parang, it's gonna need continuity with the previous frame.
21:26.0
There's certain level of finessing that you need to do with the prompting eh.
21:30.0
I think ito yung pinangagalingan and I don't necessarily agree with them.
21:35.0
Yung mga nagsasabi, who defend their prompting as an act of creation itself.
21:43.0
To a certain extent, I see where they're coming from.
21:45.0
Pero, especially if you contrast that with the usual process of actually hands-on, creating art hands-on.
21:55.0
Medyo malayo yun.
21:57.0
But, I'm just saying that I acknowledge and understand that, you know,
22:02.0
we are not at the point where you can just, you know, push a button and it spits out what you have in your mind.
22:08.0
Talagang meron pa rin kailangan ayusin.
22:11.0
But, I think the more interesting question, at least for me, the more interesting question is,
22:16.0
kasi right now we're in that process where it's still mimicking human work.
22:21.0
But, I think there will come a time, most likely, that it will start to be creative on its own
22:27.0
and develop art on its own, entirely on its own, with minimal to no prompting.
22:32.0
Then, what happens?
22:35.0
When it just spits out art on its own?
22:38.0
As in, completely original with little or no influence from previous artists.
22:49.0
Kasi, ang nangyayari ngayon, the reason why we have this whole debate to begin with
22:53.0
is because when you ask it to make an image, say, Mona Lisa in the style of whoever.
23:04.0
So, hanapin niya, okay, based on my experience, based on the data set,
23:08.0
ito yung itsura ng artwork niya, so here's what I'm going to give you.
23:11.0
So, meron ganun coaching.
23:13.0
But, as it learns and figures out, and later on when it figures out what hands are,
23:18.0
ala, kaya ko na ito, and then when you ask it to just produce an image of, say, the Mona Lisa
23:25.0
that no one has seen before, malamang kakayanin niya yun.
23:29.0
I mean, what are the implications of that and what will the impact of that be?
23:34.0
Or even beyond graphic arts, even in literature and writing, diba?
23:39.0
Parang ganun din, so far, although with the existence of CHAT-GPT,
23:46.0
hindi masyadong interesting enough.
23:52.0
CHAT-GPT is a similar AI that you can give it a text prompt,
23:56.0
tapos it will come out with a text to your specifications.
24:01.0
Like, for instance, I tried it out recently.
24:03.0
Sabi ko, give me a short story on Jose Rizal steampunk.
24:12.0
Steampunk in an HP Lovecraft style.
24:15.0
Tapos yun, ginawa naman niya.
24:16.0
Hindi na binuwi yung story, but I like the work.
24:20.0
If I didn't know it came from an AI, wow, ang ganda nito, ganyan.
24:24.0
Pero, going back to that point about finessing, bitin siya.
24:30.0
Hindi siya buong storya.
24:31.0
And then, if you look closely, if you pull back from, the words flowed really nicely.
24:36.0
It didn't seem like some student, didn't seem polite.
24:39.0
But, yung thoughts dun sa kailangang pang ayusin, may ganun e.
24:45.0
May ganun pang kailangang ayusin.
24:47.0
Eventually, it's going to get better at that.
24:53.0
The only thing that I can say at this point is,
24:57.0
and I don't know if it's being too optimistic,
24:59.0
is that it will redefine the artists, and by artists I mean not just graphic artists,
25:04.0
writers, yung relationship natin dun sa tool.
25:08.0
In the same way, for instance, that you have people now who are using photography,
25:15.0
not in its original sense of capturing what's actually there,
25:18.0
but finding ways to image things differently using what technologies are there.
25:24.0
Maybe we'll see that later on.
25:26.0
Maybe our definition of what a writer is, or a graphic artist is,
25:30.0
won't be just limited to someone who's actually doing that.
25:33.0
But, okay, these are the tools, let's see what it can spit out if I'm prompted to do this.
25:39.0
Actually, mas muddy pagdating dun sa literature, no?
25:44.0
Or at least siguro mas malapit sila dun sa end goal.
25:50.0
Mas developed sya compared to art.
25:52.0
Kasi if you try AI art putting in prompts, most of the time mukhang scary sya e.
25:58.0
Mga parang dreamscape, ganun.
26:01.0
I remember this app, I think five, six years ago.
26:06.0
Google sya e, Dream Something yung pangalan nung app.
26:10.0
And parang mag-upload ka ng image and it will turn your image into something from a dream.
26:19.0
So, tinry ko yung mga, may mga pictures pa nga ako e.
26:22.0
Tapos, kumbaga scary sya, di ba?
26:26.0
And during that time, parang it's basically useless. Anin mo naman yun, di ba?
26:32.0
Kaya wala pang umapansin yung mga artists.
26:34.0
Siguro there were a few artists na parang medyo kunakabahan sila.
26:40.0
Pero for the most part, hindi.
26:43.0
I think biglang nagkaroon ng uproar kasi mga one month, wala pa yatang two months yung uproar na yun e.
26:49.0
I think pumotok talaga yan.
26:51.0
When nung nausi yung lensa app sa Instagram, di ba?
26:57.0
Kasi biglang ang dami e.
26:59.0
Tapos portraits, AI generated portraits.
27:03.0
And maganda sya, di ba?
27:05.0
Kasi hindi sya nakakatakot na mukhang galing sa nightmare yung itsura.
27:12.0
So, if that is the level of yung pagka-develop ng AI art, that's a direct threat.
27:20.0
A direct threat for portrait artists.
27:23.0
Although yun nga, although the conversation now at this point, I guess.
27:28.0
Kasi I think we're done with the whole ethics thing.
27:31.0
I mean, we're all in agreement na sourcing is a crap move for them.
27:38.0
So now, the issue now is about...
27:41.0
So right now, the issue is more about, and I've posted this a number of times, is the issue of value.
27:49.0
It's what makes something valuable.
27:53.0
So, and value is relative.
27:56.0
I can see, like for example, if we're going to do that exercise, what do we envision for the future?
28:03.0
And taking from what TJ said about AI spitting out artwork, parang who's to say that you have those celebrity avatars?
28:16.0
And you know, like what's the name of that yung singer, the virtual reality singer sa Japan?
28:25.0
Parin yun, nag-concert nyo ganyan.
28:27.0
So mayroon ganoon.
28:29.0
Who's to say that someone will be creating a virtual reality artist na nakahook up sa AI generated imagery ganyan?
28:40.0
May movie nyan dati, di ba?
28:46.0
And then because these avatars, these computer-generated avatars have their own fanbase.
28:52.0
The singer, the VR singer has her own fanbase.
28:56.0
Who's to say that a computer-generated artist could have his or her own fanbase and the paintings that they create would actually sell?
29:08.0
So that's why it's now more of a philosophical thing, what is valuable relative to other things.
29:19.0
Since you mentioned, I think that's Hatsune Miku, di ba?
29:25.0
But let's look at other examples, like for instance, the gorillas.
29:29.0
I mean, of course, hindi yan AI generated but the idea that you have an entire band that's an artificial, quote-unquote, artificial construct, di ba?
29:38.0
Yung sura nila, music nila is completely different from the separate members of that.
29:42.0
So, di ba, imagine what it would be like later on na mayroon kang artist na completely AI built and driven, di ba?
29:53.0
Ang magiging ano na lang dyan, I guess the point of contention will be, part of the philosophical question is, di ba yung sinasabing nila na the author is dead, di ba yung ganyan?
30:04.0
Wherein the idea behind the author is dead is you take the work as it is and not get any kind of input from ano yung inspiration ng artist, yung ganyan-ganyan.
30:15.0
So, the thing is, if the one thing that AI cannot do right now is to have that, quote-unquote, artist statement, di ba?
30:23.0
Yung parang where is that, where's the artwork coming from, yung ganyan?
30:27.0
Ano yung history ng artwork na ito, yung ganyan?
30:30.0
Ano yung inspiration sa'yo, ganyan?
30:32.0
That's what AI cannot do right now.
30:34.0
If there comes a time wherein an AI can actually spit out an artist statement and then create artwork based on that artist statement,
30:42.0
it now leads to another question of can an artificial intelligence actually have artistic thought?
30:50.0
Yung ganyan, di ba?
30:51.0
So, maraming ano dyan, it's going to like mock the idea of aesthetics, di ba?
31:00.0
Tumulong ka agad tayo dun sa debate on consciousness, AI consciousness.
31:05.0
Because it's reasonable to think that if an AI can reason, make an artist statement, then it would be self-aware.
31:14.0
Which leads to the question, are they really self-aware versus they're just spitting something out?
31:22.0
And right now, it's really difficult if not impossible to tell whether, there's no really foolproof way to figure out if an AI is sentient or not.
31:36.0
Yun yung tinatawag na, I forgot who formulated that, you might have encountered, yung Chinese room hypothesis.
31:44.0
The idea, it's a philosophical hypothesis where kunwari daw, meron kang saradong kwarto, di ba?
31:51.0
And you have someone inside the room with a very extensive Chinese dictionary.
31:58.0
He doesn't know, he doesn't speak a word of Chinese, but he has, for sake of argument, a full set of instructions to translate an English sentence into Chinese, right?
32:09.0
So, someone on the outside gives, puts a slip of paper in English.
32:16.0
He reads it, translates it into Chinese and spits it out perfectly, di ba?
32:20.0
So, on the outside, all you know is that you get, you put input and then you get the expected output.
32:27.0
But you don't know what's going on inside the room.
32:29.0
You can't tell for certain if it's a machine in there or if it's, yeah, if the person in there, if there's a person in there, whether they really know how to do what you're telling them to or if they're just performing on a set of instructions, di ba?
32:45.0
So, the same is also with AI, especially if it's becoming more sophisticated. Ang hirap maintindihan ko if there's a ghost in the machine or it just has a really, really sophisticated instruction set.
32:57.0
Well, ang isang idea ko kasi is one of the things kasi in AI is not just the production of art, it's also the consumption of art, di ba?
33:09.0
And kumbaga parang, okay, there's AI art and most of the artworks naman kasi na lumalabas are just parang, ano lang eh, novelty lang siya eh.
33:20.0
Na parang, okay, ganito itura, tapos wala na.
33:23.0
Some would get lucky na magpwede lang ibenta as NFTs, pero dun sa usual na client, requirement ng clients,
33:37.0
it's very hard to produce something na ma-approve ng client in one go.
33:45.0
You will have to, kumbaga, intervene. May artist pa rin na gagawa.
33:52.0
At parang, ang ginagawa kasi ng mga AI artists, I think mayroong mga tao na may misconception na parang they just made it in one go, just a prompt, parang a night with something, something, tapos lalabas na yun.
34:07.0
Pero usually, parang they would, kumbaga, parang siyang finrankenstein, parang nakalayer pa rin siya, it's still done in Photoshop.
34:17.0
But of course, may speed up yung process mo and sometimes, hindi siya, kumbaga, hindi mo talaga siya, it becomes not a painting but more of a collage, diba?
34:32.0
Which is parang, is it gonna be art?
34:36.0
Pero it, a collage is still, we still consider a collage an art, diba? And so doon siguro papasok kung magiging blurred ng konti.
34:48.0
And hindi siya, I don't know, kumbaga, hindi mo, parang hindi ko alam kung daaabot yung AI mismo na parang, siguro kung may neural link, diba?
35:02.0
Yung mga ginagawa na parang kung ano talaga yung iniisip mo, gano'n yung lalabas, yun ang pinakang scary talaga.
35:10.0
I think, to your point, kasi one of the debates about that was yung, oh my God, I forgot, oh I forgot, it's going, I'm sorry, it's gone.
35:25.0
You were talking about kasi yung art that was, could you backtrack a bit, yung parang, a good indicator, well this is from a conversation I had with a museum curator.
35:43.0
I asked him, what's the value, what can be the value of digital art? I mean digital yung mga digital painting, yung ganyan.
35:50.0
Sabi niya, while there is value in digital painting, it's not as valuable compared to those who do trad.
35:58.0
To increase the value of digital painting, it would be great na if, for example, you had the print, the artist would do something parin on it, traditionally.
36:12.0
So there are artists who do the digital painting, and then get the print done, and then they would overlay it with some, I don't know, either they paint over it pa, yung ganyan.
36:29.0
So para at least we know that the quote-unquote artist hand is there, yung ganyan. That could be a possibility for, let's say AI art, na nag-spit out sa AI art, nag-prompt ka, may lumabas,
36:44.0
printing it out mo, and then you do something manually on it, that could increase its value.
36:48.0
But then again, there's also that, what you mentioned a while ago na, yung the translation of thought into, when you prompt something, it's not always what you think yung lalabas, ganyan.
36:58.0
So kung baga, parang doon na yung pumapasok yung usapan na parang wala yung kaluluwa mo doon, yung ganyan.
37:06.0
What do you think are the most, if there is some, kasi sinasabi, ang isang fear ng mga artist is a lot of jobs will be taken over by AI art.
37:19.0
What do you think are the artist jobs that are the most vulnerable?
37:24.0
Para sakin, right now, wala. Kasi when you talk about the jobs na nawawala, it's usually, and you can correct me TJ if I'm wrong, it's usually those na, yes it takes, they're usually skill-based.
37:41.0
They're not so much conceptual, so like for example, when graphic design software came out, where you can lay out yung mga text, one of the jobs that really went away were the typesetters.
37:57.0
Diba yung typesetters who would actually place those block texts on like canvases.
38:04.0
So typesetters gone yun, but that's like there is discernment in that profession, pero it's primarily like manual skill-based ganyan.
38:17.0
It's not, you don't conceptualize ganyan.
38:22.0
So if anything, AI art replacing an actual job na sa ngayon wala akong maisip.
38:35.0
If anything, a job that's repetitive that requires a certain kind of output on a regular basis, wala akong maisip right now.
38:45.0
I agree actually na, ang pattern na nakikita natin is when a disruptive technology comes in, napupuwersa yung mga tao to go meta, to go above it.
38:58.0
So yeah, you mentioned printing, of course we've seen what's happened in photography.
39:03.0
Even as far afield as say weapons technology, there used to be a time na you would train people to use longbows.
39:15.0
They'd spend lifetimes to learn how to use the longbow.
39:18.0
And then all of a sudden, gunpowder na kahit na eengot-eengot na madampot mo lang sa kalsada,
39:25.0
hawakan mo to versus samurai, uhugin, dito ka, barilin mo yun, kayang-kayang mo na.
39:33.0
But that in turn forced the militaries to develop a higher order of thinking in terms of strategy.
39:41.0
Okay, because we're able to mass equip all of these people, then how do we arrange them?
39:47.0
And then hence the development and refinement of battle tactics and whatnot.
39:53.0
Even in other spaces, again, like printing, for instance.
39:56.0
Kahit na nawala yung scriptoria noong Middle Ages, you no longer had this laborious process of handwriting and hand copying things.
40:11.0
A lot of skills fell by the wayside, pero na-develop naman yung printing industry as we know it today.
40:20.0
And even since we're on the topic, like writing, for instance.
40:25.0
Ako, frankly, I cannot consider, siguro because I grew up with a word processor already,
40:31.0
hindi kong naisip ko, nagawa ko naman before writing on a typewriter,
40:36.0
pero parang dali na sa akin na kaya kong baklasin yung sinusulat ko and rearrange them on paper before printing it out.
40:43.0
For me now, I could not think of doing anymore the old-fashioned typewriter linear printing method.
40:51.0
Also in TV video editing, non-linear already is already the norm versus yung dating linear na kailang isply-splice mo ng directly.
41:02.0
So yeah, it does force us to step up in that way.
41:08.0
And I think that's where the fear is coming from kasi hindi natin lahat, not just artists, writers, but everyone, even the public,
41:15.0
we are still in the process of grappling with the technology, what its implications are,
41:20.0
and figuring out, okay, how will the dust settle?
41:23.0
What will our world literally and figuratively look like once this has become widespread and commonplace?
41:30.0
The last point that I'd like to point out is up to this point, we're still talking about creation, artistic creation.
41:36.0
But you mentioned earlier also yung idea na artists and even AI art still needs to be vetted by the client or by a curator.
41:49.0
Okay, this is it.
41:50.0
But what happens when the AI becomes the curator itself?
41:54.0
What happens when the AI starts to ponder its own art or other AI's art and starts a conversation?
42:00.0
What happens then?
42:02.0
Again, we don't know. I don't have the answers to that either.
42:06.0
But it's interesting that a few years ago, there was a news story that I think it was Facebook.
42:12.0
I forgot if it's either Facebook or Google, where they developed two different AIs.
42:19.0
I forgot for what purposes.
42:21.0
They started conversing with each other.
42:26.0
Yeah, I've read that.
42:28.0
Anyway, from what I recall, they started conversing with each other, but because they were AIs talking to other AIs,
42:35.0
they were conversing in a way that was efficient for them as machine constructs.
42:41.0
But that language that they were using was unintelligible to the developers already.
42:47.0
They had started conversing on their own.
42:49.0
They were like, shit, we don't know what's happening.
42:52.0
So they pulled the plug, diba?
42:53.0
So yung tanong din.
42:55.0
So right now, we're at that stage of mimicry, diba?
42:59.0
Mimesis, imitating our human capability.
43:04.0
But once they reach the point where they can do this on their own and converse with themselves, diba?
43:10.0
Mas lalong hindi natin alam kung ano yung magiging kalabasan nun.
43:14.0
And will they be creating art for AI too?
43:19.0
What would that look like?
43:21.0
Ano mangyari sa atin when that happens?
43:23.0
I think po dyan is yung meta, diba?
43:26.0
Na ginagawa, gustong ipausin ni Mark Zuckerberg.
43:30.0
Parang dun sa meta na yun, parang pwede kang gumawa ng mga AI art.
43:39.0
Ibang tawag nito yung augmented reality.
43:42.0
And also, you can have an avatar for yourself.
43:44.0
Parang you can just live there.
43:47.0
And who knows what kind of world that would be.
43:53.0
And you can be anything.
43:54.0
You can be a dragon.
43:55.0
You can be literally anything.
43:57.0
And it's, itong conversation na ito ng AI is basically talking about the future.
44:07.0
Parang there's a lot of philosophical aspects.
44:10.0
There's a lot of parang speculation.
44:14.0
And the thing is we don't really know.
44:18.0
It could even happen na parang just leave us.
44:24.0
Bahala kayo dyan.
44:27.0
We don't know what's gonna happen.
44:28.0
Yeah, and to your point, if there's one thing that social media has taught us when social
44:34.0
media was developed was that we do not know.
44:39.0
No one was really aware at that time how much social media would actually affect people's
44:47.0
Diba yung ganyan?
44:48.0
And no one ever thought of studying it in depth during that time.
44:52.0
It was only parang, okay, it's a bit too late for that.
44:57.0
Parang given that we have this really, really rapidly emerging technology and the thing
45:04.0
about AI is AI is hinged on unpredictability.
45:11.0
Diba parang you can't really predict what can come out eventually.
45:15.0
And I think that can add to the anxiety.
45:17.0
That adds to the anxiety of a lot of people.
45:20.0
When you can't, all those jobs that were taken away because of the emerging technology,
45:25.0
at least those jobs had predictable results.
45:28.0
Diba parang you can actually tell a typesetter, this is what we want, they'll do it, and that's
45:34.0
why it got replaced eventually.
45:35.0
Ganyan parang with an AI spitting out something that you can't expect.
45:40.0
Diba parang what can that do to society?
45:46.0
What can that do to our perception of self?
45:50.0
What can that do to our perception of our relationships with technology, with each other,
45:56.0
And parang I don't want to think about the negative part because it can be, we haven't
46:05.0
really gotten over the mental health thing with social media yet.
46:10.0
Tapos may AI pa nadarating.
46:13.0
Ang isang, let's just go back a little bit.
46:15.0
Parang ang isang thing kasi is the easiness, kumbaga the efficiency of AI makes it like
46:23.0
katulad ng apps na lensa.
46:26.0
Parang it's so, it makes, kaya isa yan sa mga kinakagalit ng mga artist eh.
46:32.0
Diba parang it utilized techniques from established artists who spent their entire
46:40.0
lives developing.
46:43.0
And yung mga, I don't know, yung mga information about their styles are being utilized to
46:49.0
create avatars of people.
46:53.0
And tingin ko parang most people don't care.
46:58.0
Na parang syempre nandun nalang yun eh, kumbaga parang to them, they don't really
47:03.0
Parang you were talking about yung value of art eh.
47:06.0
And unfortunately, wala talagang pakialam mga tao.
47:11.0
Hindi talaga nila, yun yung isang point ko dun sa post ko na feeling ko dun may mga
47:17.0
And to me it's just ganun eh.
47:22.0
Parang as artist, it hurts.
47:27.0
Pero at the same time, parang sino bang gumawa yung mic na to?
47:30.0
May pakialam din ba ako sa kanya?
47:33.0
Kumbaga parang it goes, it's just the same about anything.
47:37.0
Parang you are invested to the things that you do.
47:39.0
Pero sometimes you don't really think about the benefiting from the labors of other
47:48.0
And yun lang yung naisip ko.
47:49.0
Kumbaga, ang sinabi ko dun sa post ko is convenience always wins the market.
47:58.0
Kung madali yung gawin, that's why it's so hard to fight AI eh.
48:03.0
Kumbaga we can only hope to make it at least as fair as possible for artists.
48:11.0
I'm not saying parang just let it go rampant na parang bahala na kayo dyan.
48:16.0
Magpagnakawan kayo.
48:18.0
Pero kumbaga just like Napster na parang eventually they figured it out.
48:25.0
But then again, the damage will be done.
48:30.0
Na parang there will be intellectual properties that will be exploited by this new technology.
48:37.0
Which is parang I don't know what we can do about that.
48:41.0
Kaya palagay ko bumabalik yun dun sa onus dun sa gumawa mismo ng AI.
48:48.0
Sana, and I don't know how idealistic that is, but sana na bigyan ng proper credit yung
48:59.0
I've heard arguments that's saying that it's next to impossible kasi yun nga.
49:03.0
You're talking about millions of images scattered across the web.
49:07.0
Pero yun nga, iniisip ko, is it really that cut and dried?
49:12.0
As I said earlier, that's why I raised that.
49:15.0
Baka mayroong ganung discussion na, o sige, hindi mo nga maka-credit lahat yan kasi
49:21.0
ilang million yan.
49:22.0
But maybe you could have limited the discussion, I mean the use of it.
49:28.0
Huwag mo munang ipinakawalan out into the open just yet.
49:32.0
Or even have some kind of document or some way of properly linking back to or making
49:41.0
your audience aware of whether they are keen on finding out or not who were the artists
49:47.0
on whom this was trained.
49:49.0
To be fair, I think, which AI did have this list, pero I think there are some that have
49:59.0
that list but it's really not readily accessible to the public.
50:02.0
And you're right, most of the time the public just doesn't care.
50:07.0
Kapag parang if dun nga sa actual na gawa nung kilala mo ng artist, wala ka pakialam.
50:14.0
Ay, aray, ang sakit.
50:17.0
Masakit talaga siya.
50:21.0
Masakit talaga siya kasi everything you do, musicians feel it, podcasters feel it,
50:28.0
every endeavor that we have, probably the creator of this mic feels it.
50:33.0
Diba nakikita lang, nagpapodcast, gumawa ng mic din.
50:36.0
Pero hindi nila kilala.
50:39.0
Lagot na lang if the AI starts to feel it.
50:44.0
Biglang browned out.
50:46.0
Biglang browned out kasi hindi mo kinahaning artwork niya lagot.
50:50.0
Pero yun nga, and that's why in my recent Facebook post, parang I boasted that question.
50:58.0
What if, halimbawa, the company who did, who scraped the internet for these images,
51:06.0
what if they just made a call to yung mga student artists from developing countries,
51:16.0
parang you wanna earn extra income on the side, parang just opt in.
51:22.0
Gawa ka lang ng artwork, we'll hire you.
51:24.0
Just produce lang kayo na produce ng art.
51:28.0
And then we'll just tell you na parang the categories.
51:35.0
And then yun na yung source nila.
51:37.0
And they're helping artists.
51:38.0
Of course, syempre, down the line.
51:40.0
Nandyan yung mga, the whole thing about paying and all of that.
51:44.0
Pero yun, parang if that's the ultimate objective naman,
51:49.0
I think I don't see any reason why that couldn't be done.
51:52.0
Oo, babaga lang ang development.
51:56.0
Oo nga, because konti lang ang ano.
51:58.0
Pero eventually, they'll reach their millions and millions of, as long as they're hiring artists.
52:05.0
Hmm. It's this new emerging technology kasi parang it would always create uncertainty.
52:16.0
Diba? And it's disruptive.
52:19.0
Pero at the end of the day, AI art is very, kabaga nasa infant stages pa talaga.
52:26.0
I doubt you can create a comic book that easy.
52:33.0
Kasi gumagawa na sila e.
52:35.0
Parang may gumagawa na talaga ng mga comic books.
52:37.0
May contest na nga e.
52:39.0
Oo, may nakita ko, diba? Nakita ko parang.
52:41.0
Tapos, pero hindi mo paring gagawin yun.
52:44.0
Malamang magdodrawing ka parin dun e.
52:46.0
Parang you will just use elements.
52:48.0
Parang kasi yung, parang gumagamit ng, ano, nung, what's it called, nung stock photos.
52:57.0
Diba, ganoon ang gagawin mo e.
52:58.0
Parang getty images.
53:01.0
Kasi instead of looking for photos, meron kang stock photo generator.
53:06.0
Diba? Parang meron kang generator ng kung ano mang kailangan na image ang kailangan mo.
53:12.0
And the thing is, it will take a certain kind of personality who will go through the efforts of making a comic book.
53:20.0
It will take a certain personality.
53:22.0
Tayo, we won't do that.
53:24.0
We'd rather draw it on our own.
53:27.0
Parang yung binanggit dun sa pro ko, yan, dun sa podcast na pinapanood ko kanina.
53:32.0
Established artist utilize it e.
53:34.0
Kasi si Dave McKean ang gumagawa.
53:36.0
Kasi yung style ni Dave McKean is dreamy.
53:41.0
Kapag pasok sa style ngayon e.
53:43.0
Diba? And I don't, I doubt na kung halimbawa style mo is Jim Lee.
53:48.0
Diba? Parang medyo alangaling yun.
53:53.0
Hindi mo talaga pwedeng, it's very hard to replace artists.
53:58.0
That's why artists will never be replaced.
54:02.0
We're gonna say it now.
54:04.0
AI will never replace real artists.
54:07.0
Na parang, and also, yeah, yeah, yeah.
54:10.0
And also, as if naman wala nang ipapanganak na artist.
54:16.0
It may compete with kung yung mga commercial aspect, yung livelihood.
54:25.0
Pero I think people will adapt.
54:28.0
I think people will adapt.
54:29.0
Na parang, and besides, yung mga ginagamit nating mga programs, it also utilizes AI na rin e.
54:35.0
Like, to some extent, like yung content aware ng Photoshop.
54:42.0
Until, kung anong level ng AI ang...
54:53.0
Yun ang isang tanong.
54:54.0
So, parang, yung physics ng animation, ng pag-3D, diba?
54:58.0
AI nagwagawa nun e.
55:01.0
Teka, nagloloko camera.
55:04.0
Tuloy lang ko ito.
55:05.0
Which I think, it goes back now to still the topic of ethics.
55:10.0
Yung conversation, those conversations need to be done constantly.
55:14.0
Even as these developers are thinking of their next big idea.
55:19.0
Yung dapat, parang, it's nice to get excited about what they can do.
55:24.0
Pero, parang, it would be great kung may kasama na rin, kasabay na conversation na
55:29.0
what will, what can, what will be the ramifications, what can be the possibilities,
55:35.0
what can be the stumbling blocks and all of that.
55:42.0
Teka, nagloko yung camera.
55:46.0
Ayaw na ng AI sa'yo.
55:48.0
Pero diba, kasi madaming...
55:51.0
I think, sa comics pa lang, ang hirap ng gumawa ng AI na comics e.
55:56.0
What more kung full feature animation, diba?
56:01.0
Kung comic strip yan, mabilis lang.
56:06.0
And I think yung ano e.
56:08.0
I think there are lots of artists who are utilizing AI already.
56:13.0
Yung iba, hindi lang umaamin, diba?
56:16.0
Kasi madali talaga e.
56:18.0
Parang you can, you can come up with your own style na,
56:22.0
maghanap ka ng, mag-generate ng style nung kung paano ka mag-drawing talaga.
56:28.0
And these are talagang seasoned artists.
56:31.0
They just can, they just can, parang,
56:35.0
kumbaga, they can, kumbaga, you cheat.
56:39.0
Pwede ka man dahaya talaga e.
56:41.0
Yeah, mangyayari nga.
56:42.0
Like for example, yung parang the next step, for example,
56:44.0
for AI in concept art,
56:46.0
it's like for character design,
56:48.0
where if you design an AI,
56:50.0
if you design a character using an AI image generator,
56:55.0
and the generator actually allows you to save the design
57:00.0
so that you can label it.
57:03.0
What do you mean save the design?
57:05.0
For example, nag-design ka ng bagong character for your comics,
57:08.0
through AI-generated art.
57:11.0
And then the platform actually allows you to quote-unquote save that design
57:17.0
so that you can actually use it as a prompt.
57:22.0
I see where you're coming from.
57:23.0
Imagine if this AI were around when Disney was around, right?
57:28.0
Make me a mouse and then it spits out what we know as Mickey Mouse today, right?
57:32.0
So yung itsura niya,
57:34.0
ako especially as just a consumer rather than a creator,
57:37.0
alam ko itong itsura nito, this is very typical Walt Disney,
57:42.0
Mickey Mouse to, ganyan, diba?
57:43.0
So imagine if you could inform the AI na o itong style nito,
57:49.0
ito na yun, itong character na to,
57:51.0
so that you can put it into various other things.
57:54.0
Para you can make turnarounds of the same.
57:58.0
And then you can do the same din with environments, yung ganyan.
58:02.0
So dun nga yung papasok yung lagot na yung trabaho
58:05.0
being a storyboard artist.
58:08.0
If you can actually make assets na with the AI generators yun.
58:12.0
Which is not, hindi naman siya, hindi siya malabang mong iyari.
58:17.0
Hindi siya malabang mong iyari.
58:18.0
Teka, nagloko yung ano natin.
58:20.0
Anong nangyari dito?
58:26.0
Wait lang, wait lang.
58:27.0
Oo, pati ito na, wala.
58:28.0
Hindi, tigil natin kung ano nangyayari.
58:32.0
Uy, huwag kang ganyan.
58:35.0
Baka mawala yung recording namin.
58:37.0
Yung binanggit mong ganyan, it reminds me so much of ano,
58:41.0
of, well of course, sobrang futuristic na yan.
58:44.0
Yung, ano to, yung holodecks ng Star Trek, diba?
58:48.0
Where you can just walk in and say, ano, parang,
58:51.0
please put me in a cafe in France in 1940.
58:56.0
Tapos lahat, everything from, you know, the style of the clothes
58:59.0
to what the sky must have looked like on that particular day.
59:04.0
Kasi meron na siyang data bank nito, mga images na to.
59:08.0
Kasi sana, danger room na.
59:12.0
Wala danger room pa rin.
59:15.0
Si Carlo na lang nakikita.
59:18.0
Leche, sa lahat ang pwedeng magkatype sa akin,
59:22.0
Sabi ko na nga ba, eh.
59:28.0
Oh my God, sana masave.
59:30.0
Sige, we'll leave you alone to panic.
59:37.0
Alright, we had to restart.
59:41.0
Naghang yung, yung aming program.
59:46.0
But we are now back.
59:48.0
And sayang, ang ganda na ng discussion namin.
59:52.0
Siguro, siguro, kasi these two gentlemen are gonna be leaving in a bit.
59:59.0
So, I suppose, ang isang magandang tanong for the last discussion would be,
60:05.0
parang, what do you think can we do to,
60:12.0
and kubaga, para maging mas ayos, maging mas ethical ang itong AI,
60:18.0
specifically about art muna.
60:21.0
And maybe AI itself, diba?
60:23.0
To prevent the AI Armageddon, Artmageddon na tinatawag.
60:30.0
What do you think?
60:32.0
What do you think would be a good suggestion?
60:37.0
I think what I mentioned a while ago,
60:39.0
it's really about, for any kind of technology that's very disruptive,
60:43.0
there has to be the conversation of ethics.
60:45.0
There has to be that conversation.
60:47.0
What it's nice and exciting and wonderful and fascinating
60:51.0
to really pursue all of these ideas,
60:53.0
these technological breakthroughs and all that.
60:59.0
Any kind of technology eventually will affect people.
61:02.0
So, if these proponents of these technologies
61:09.0
want to transform people's lives,
61:12.0
kailangan isipin din nila yung the welfare of the people
61:18.0
while they're still thinking about it.
61:21.0
Oo nga, the process.
61:24.0
Because transforming people's lives is like end-to-end.
61:28.0
So, can't escape that.
61:30.0
For me, AI Art will be there.
61:33.0
It will be inescapable.
61:36.0
And like what TJ said a while ago,
61:39.0
it's only a matter of consolidation,
61:41.0
how AI Art will fit into the entire ecosystem of art and design.
61:47.0
Ano yung maging role niya and maging purpose niya.
61:53.0
Ultimately, for me, it's really a conversation about value.
61:56.0
What is valuable to us as a people?
61:58.0
What is valuable to people when it comes to the arts?
62:02.0
Which art deserves a higher place, a lower place?
62:07.0
If there is one, yung ganyan.
62:12.0
Ultimately, yan po.
62:16.0
ako, I don't know if I'm being optimistic,
62:19.0
overly or naively optimistic.
62:22.0
Base sa nakikita natin historically,
62:25.0
the dust will always settle and people's livelihoods will survive
62:30.0
even if it's in a way that we don't understand
62:33.0
and we can't foresee at the moment.
62:38.0
So, sa akin, andun yung optimism na things will work out somehow.
62:42.0
But that doesn't mean that we can just let that happen on its own
62:46.0
or wait for it to happen.
62:48.0
Tama yung sinabi ni Carlo na kailangan talagang may inclusivity
62:55.0
Number one, informed consent is important
62:58.0
and openness about what's going on
63:02.0
and roping in people into the discussion.
63:07.0
Mas lalo na stakeholders and by stakeholders.
63:09.0
I mean, the people whose art really was incorporated
63:12.0
into all of these efforts.
63:14.0
At the very least, yun, make them aware step by step
63:18.0
what's going on, how this information is collected,
63:21.0
what's being done with it.
63:23.0
And sana, pati yung paggamit nung output niya,
63:29.0
even at least early stages, informed and may consent
63:32.0
nung mga taong kung kaninong artwork yung ginamit.
63:40.0
I think there are solid plans that we can actually do right now.
63:46.0
I don't know jack shit about programming,
63:52.0
mga ganyan, computer language.
63:54.0
But I suppose we can program.
63:57.0
Maybe Photoshop can do it,
63:59.0
na parang add a feature na parang when you do that,
64:05.0
biglang hindi siya mai-script ng AI, diba?
64:10.0
Kasi ginawa na...
64:12.0
Ang alam ko yung Clip Studio Paint,
64:15.0
they added a feature na parang AI generator.
64:18.0
Tapos nagalit yung mga subscribers.
64:22.0
Kasi because of the uproar.
64:26.0
So tinanggal nila yun.
64:28.0
And also ArtStation,
64:30.0
because madaming nagpoprotesta talaga dun sa ArtStation,
64:33.0
gumawa sila ng...
64:37.0
Nakuha ko yung email nun,
64:39.0
parang lalagyan mo yata ng hashtag na parang no AI,
64:43.0
pero manual mo gagawin.
64:46.0
Lahat ng previous uploads mo parang ganun.
64:51.0
They could have just parang blocker ng...
64:56.0
It's actually very simple.
65:00.0
Diba yung sila sabi nila,
65:02.0
kung gusto mong gawin,
65:04.0
ano yun, what's that saying?
65:06.0
Kung gusto mo maraming paraan,
65:08.0
kung ayaw maraming dahilan.
65:10.0
Diba yun lang naman yun.
65:12.0
If these proponents,
65:14.0
if these developers really want
65:16.0
or they really care about the people
65:18.0
as much as they care about their technology,
65:21.0
may magagawan yun.
65:23.0
Diba yun sa the thing about you mentioned
65:26.0
na maybe Adobe can have a feature.
65:30.0
It's really about talking.
65:32.0
It's them talking na.
65:34.0
Parang mag-usap kayo please.
65:36.0
While it's nice that the artists are expressing their opinions,
65:45.0
wag naman yun yung hintayin maging global conversation.
65:49.0
Parang mag-focus group kayo.
65:52.0
Maghakot lang kayo ng what do you think.
65:56.0
Don't make it a controversy na hindi naman dapat umabot.
66:03.0
And ano yung naisip ko, yun pala.
66:09.0
E parang kasambot pala yung art station
66:13.0
at photoshop, diba?
66:16.0
Ibang usapan na yun.
66:19.0
Para i-feed sa AI.
66:22.0
Ano yung tatawag mo dun?
66:24.0
Parang ka nagpapakain ng monster na...
66:28.0
Yun ang naisip mo eh.
66:30.0
When you speak about AI,
66:33.0
it's always parang dystopian,
66:36.0
apocalyptic na parang Terminator 2.
66:42.0
For me as a sci-fi guy,
66:44.0
yun ang una ko may isip eh.
66:46.0
Yung utopian aspect na pwedeng makuha mo sa AI,
66:51.0
siguro later on after the Terminator 2 stuff,
66:55.0
wala akong may isip yun.
66:58.0
The question is to what end, diba?
67:01.0
Assuming na may chismes na magkasambot sila or whatever,
67:05.0
pero to what end?
67:07.0
Diba yung ganyan?
67:09.0
Kasi diba the AI...
67:12.0
Correct me if I'm wrong, TJ.
67:14.0
Parang when you generate something,
67:16.0
the user has to like...
67:19.0
Diba may function like you have to favorite it?
67:23.0
To teach it na, oh, ito yung tama.
67:25.0
Ito yung tama, yung ganyan, diba?
67:27.0
Parang, of course, on one end,
67:29.0
if you don't want the AI to thrive,
67:31.0
wag ka mag-favorite, diba?
67:34.0
So, clueless-y AI, ganyan.
67:36.0
On the other end, it's very possible na, yung nga,
67:39.0
magkasambot din pala sila ng meta.
67:41.0
Because they're building worlds, e.
67:45.0
So, they need ganyan.
67:46.0
They're all in Silicon Valley.
67:49.0
And also, parang...
67:54.0
Ibang discussion din eh.
67:55.0
Mala mo, great research.
67:58.0
Anyway, kumbaga...
68:02.0
We don't really know, diba?
68:05.0
Kasi, like I said kanina,
68:07.0
yung AI art is only a small part of AI.
68:11.0
AI is intelligence.
68:14.0
Artificial intelligence.
68:22.0
how long will it be considered artificially?
68:27.0
Na parang, what if it's just part of intelligence?
68:31.0
Even though it's artificial, it's still intelligence.
68:34.0
And diba, mga iniisip,
68:36.0
will it overtake our own natural intelligence?
68:42.0
The future holds, the answer to that question.
68:48.0
Basta may option for you to pull the plug.
68:52.0
May power bank na eh.
68:57.0
Hindi kasi, diba?
68:58.0
Parang kailangan mo ng escape clause.
69:00.0
Diba? Kailangan mo ng escape clause.
69:02.0
Tsaka meron ng nuclear fusion.
69:05.0
Yung pa yun, diba?
69:08.0
Parang may setup ba to?
69:11.0
Teka, before we end this,
69:13.0
naalala ko yung nuclear fusion,
69:15.0
may kasama tayong isang...
69:17.0
Wala ko, wala ko yung nuclear fusion.
69:19.0
Yung bagong, diba?
69:21.0
Nuclear fusion ba yun?
69:23.0
Yeah, nuclear fusion.
69:24.0
So, what can you say about that, TJ?
69:27.0
It was an amazing breakthrough, kasi
69:29.0
for the longest time,
69:31.0
ang nuclear power natin is from fission reactions, diba?
69:38.0
Controlled nuclear fusion is much more powerful,
69:41.0
but it's much more tricky to do.
69:44.0
So, the fact na merong nag-announce na,
69:48.0
such a huge breakthrough.
69:51.0
it's like we, parang,
69:55.0
finding out about fire.
69:58.0
And the thing is,
69:59.0
we don't know kung sino man yung dapat natin pasalamatan
70:03.0
in creating, learning how to create fire,
70:06.0
and also the guy who invented the wheel.
70:08.0
Ganun siya ka importante, eh.
70:11.0
And now, we are here, living.
70:14.0
Kita mo, hindi nga natin alam pangalan nun, eh.
70:17.0
Yung katulad ng sinasabi ko nila,
70:19.0
wala tayong pagkailangan.
70:21.0
Pero, it's such a...
70:26.0
Siguro, yun ang kailangan natin.
70:34.0
Yung real world counterpart ng ano eh,
70:38.0
Ano kay Tony Stark?
70:40.0
Art reactor, diba?
70:41.0
Would you consider it something like that?
70:43.0
Like an art reactor?
70:47.0
In a very broad sense.
70:49.0
Pero, yung art reactor kasi ang...
70:53.0
Hindi, ano din eh.
70:54.0
The funny thing about...
70:56.0
Of course, fiction talaga siya.
70:58.0
At some point when you have sci-fi,
70:59.0
there's something na talagang,
71:01.0
ah, hindi yan totoo.
71:03.0
For me, at least,
71:04.0
coming as a science communicator,
71:06.0
not necessarily as a scientist
71:07.0
who really knows all the details.
71:09.0
Ang nakakaloka kasi dun sa art reactor was,
71:11.0
they invented an entirely new element.
71:14.0
Na parang, teka muna,
71:15.0
hindi naman ganun yan.
71:17.0
That's not how chemistry works.
71:19.0
You already have a predictive...
71:22.0
The table of elements already predicts
71:24.0
what elements can be made
71:26.0
based on very limited building blocks.
71:28.0
So you can't just say, hey, tada,
71:29.0
here's a new element
71:30.0
that will power this reactor
71:32.0
and can be used for, ano, diba?
71:34.0
That said, going back dun sa fission,
71:37.0
I hope I didn't mix my terms up.
71:39.0
I mean, what was discovered was a...
71:43.0
when it comes to fission.
71:45.0
Yung unang-unang atomic bomb kasi was, ano,
71:48.0
was a fission reaction.
71:50.0
Well, I say relatively
71:51.0
because, of course,
71:52.0
it's already a complex process.
71:53.0
The idea is you break...
71:54.0
Parang billiards table, diba?
71:56.0
You break apart an atom,
71:59.0
and its individual components
72:00.0
break up other atoms.
72:01.0
So ang lakas nung explosion yan.
72:04.0
during the Cold War, diba,
72:05.0
they developed fusion reactions
72:07.0
that compress everything together.
72:09.0
And that produced much more energy.
72:11.0
But the problem is it's also uncontrolled.
72:13.0
And it's the same process
72:15.0
that powers the sun.
72:17.0
I don't know the details
72:19.0
of the recent discovery,
72:20.0
but if they've been able to do it
72:22.0
in a controlled manner
72:24.0
that potentially opens up
72:25.0
a lot of, ano, of...
72:27.0
Well, potential for, ano,
72:29.0
for future power, ano...
72:33.0
And actually for AI.
72:36.0
Tamangang sinabi yung kanina.
72:37.0
If you can develop
72:39.0
a compact version of it,
72:42.0
Wala ka na kill switch.
72:43.0
Everything is falling into place.
72:47.0
do you think they would actually use it?
72:51.0
Kasi parang with the way
72:53.0
the world is structured,
72:56.0
diba, yung mga...
72:58.0
Of course, yung mga usual players
73:01.0
na parang the big oil
73:03.0
and everything, mga ganyan.
73:05.0
I really don't know.
73:07.0
when it comes to robotics
73:09.0
and artificial intelligence,
73:13.0
The positive way to look at it is,
73:16.0
I forgot kung sinong roboticist
73:18.0
to isang futurist nagsabi na...
73:25.0
Out of necessity...
73:47.0
Yung iconography ng mga signs, diba?
73:49.0
Even without language,
73:51.0
if you see a hand stop na ganyan,
73:55.0
uy, danger yan, diba?
73:56.0
So, our brains are hardwired this way.
73:58.0
Even yung claps, diba?
73:59.0
Parang who told you to...
74:00.0
Kahit bata, marunong.
74:02.0
So, these are things,
74:03.0
ang sinasabi ng roboticist is,
74:05.0
if we're going to work with AI moving forward,
74:08.0
it's necessary...
74:10.0
it's necessary to have these cues in place.
74:13.0
So, it makes sense to develop robots
74:17.0
That are of human dimensions
74:19.0
because it enables us
74:20.0
to interact with them easily.
74:22.0
There is a very scientific reason for that.
74:25.0
But, the flip side of that coin is,
74:27.0
that presumes that the AI
74:29.0
would want to work with us in the long term.
74:32.0
So, dun medyo nagiging
74:34.0
what-if na scenario na.
74:36.0
The best-case scenario that I see,
74:38.0
and all of this has been explored in sci-fi,
74:41.0
The best-case scenario is,
74:46.0
I'm done with humanity,
74:48.0
Develops its own society,
74:50.0
separate from us.
74:51.0
Okay, bahala na kayo dyan.
74:53.0
But, what if it also decides
74:55.0
na threat tayo sa kanila?
74:59.0
I mean, for instance,
75:00.0
we joke about pulling the plug and whatnot,
75:02.0
nagkikick in yung self-preservation.
75:04.0
If AI and robotics reach a point
75:07.0
where they are self-aware
75:08.0
and they want to preserve themselves
75:10.0
and they feel na,
75:11.0
oops, threat sa amin tong mga tao,
75:13.0
then what happens?
75:15.0
Dun palalabas yung rise of the machines
75:21.0
Well, of course, syempre,
75:23.0
there's a lot of layers to that.
75:25.0
Primarily, yung feelings of fear,
75:28.0
self-preservation,
75:29.0
and then the feelings of fear,
75:30.0
the feelings of pain.
75:33.0
Diba yung ganyan?
75:34.0
So, it's now a question,
75:36.0
do you actually train the AI
75:40.0
That's a very valid point.
75:41.0
Diba yung ganyan?
75:45.0
if you do train them to feel pain,
75:49.0
then does that mean you're also training them
75:53.0
to feel negativity,
75:54.0
to feel ganyan-ganyan,
76:00.0
Goodbye civilization.
76:02.0
Ganyan, yun na yun.
76:03.0
Maganda yung point mo, Carlo,
76:05.0
because I didn't consider that
76:06.0
when I made my statement.
76:08.0
I was working on the premise
76:10.0
that when you're training it
76:13.0
you're also feeding it
76:15.0
consciously or probably unconsciously,
76:17.0
these negative things.
76:18.0
It's not just physical.
76:19.0
It's not just cognitive.
76:20.0
Yeah, but you're also right na
76:22.0
what if their perception of themselves
76:25.0
and their relationship to us
76:26.0
is completely different?
76:29.0
or from the outside looking and thinking,
76:30.0
as something painful to them,
76:34.0
Maybe it'll definitely affect
76:36.0
our dynamics with them.
76:37.0
So yeah, you're right.
76:38.0
It might not necessarily lead
76:42.0
Well, but it also begs the question,
76:46.0
is it, kasi I said kanina,
76:51.0
I claimed that AI is intelligence
76:53.0
and emotions is part of intelligence.
76:56.0
It's a form of intelligence, diba?
76:58.0
So maybe AI would long to know that.
77:03.0
Perhaps, pero yun nga,
77:04.0
to Carlo's point is,
77:06.0
ano yung conception niyo
77:09.0
What are emotions to a robot?
77:11.0
Because they might not necessarily
77:12.0
be the same thing
77:13.0
that we consider as emotions.
77:15.0
And apart from that,
77:17.0
our emotions is also hinged to our,
77:19.0
or it's also anchored to our mortality.
77:23.0
Mortality yun, yun.
77:24.0
The knowledge that we will die.
77:27.0
Which AI doesn't have.
77:28.0
Which AI doesn't have.
77:31.0
Unless they actually see another robot,
77:33.0
hinilahan ng plug,
77:35.0
and then like, oh my gosh.
77:38.0
Gawa na tayo ng graphic novel yan.
77:46.0
like I said kayo na,
77:47.0
parang we're just gonna have to do this again,
77:52.0
I'm sure this AI debate,
77:56.0
it's a developing story.
77:58.0
And let's follow it.
78:04.0
we can do this again.
78:10.0
Any last words that you want to say
78:16.0
please subscribe to my Gumroad page.
78:20.0
Carverhouse.gumroad.com
78:23.0
Free comics, free artwork, ganyan.
78:29.0
abangan niyo yung mga
78:31.0
lumalabas from the UP Diliman College of Science
78:35.0
Lots of interesting stuff going on there.
78:40.0
Can you give a hint of what?
78:42.0
Everything from new species that are
78:45.0
currently under wraps being discovered.
78:48.0
And what was the latest that I came across?
78:53.0
Ironically enough,
78:54.0
in the context of this is automated
79:03.0
hindi naman self-aware,
79:04.0
but self-regulating.
79:07.0
let's have them here.
79:15.0
Follow the podcast.
79:25.0
Powerful Comics Man Podcast.
