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No lies. No distortions. Just the facts. And the truth about issues that matter.

Facts Verse with Christian Esguerra

Aamin po ako na recorded po yung ating interview ngayon pero ginagawa natin siya ngayon mga alas 3 ng hapon at pag napalod nyo na to by that time so 7.30pm na dyan po sa Manila.

Teka hindi pala dyan kasi nasa Manila rin ako. All day kausap ko wala sa Manila.

Nagre-record po tayo ngayon kasi meron po akong engagement mamayang gabi. Meron po isang forum na naimbitahan po tayo roon at kailangan po natin umatin dahil maganda po yung topic.

Human rights po ang pag-uusapan. Now speaking of human rights, ang pag-uusapan po natin yung latest development po dito sa issue ng ongoing investigation ng office of the prosecutor dito po sa nangyaring drug war.

At ang latest announcement coming from President Ferdinand Bongbong Marcos Jr. is that the Philippines would disengage from any contact or communication with the ICC. Ano po ba implication ito?

Nakakasama po natin para sa episode na ito muli si Atty. Gilbert Andres ng Center Law. Magandang araw po sa inyo sir and thank you for joining us again on Facts Verse.

Magandang araw Christian at sa mga viewers ng Facts Verse.

Sir ano po ba ang basa nyo rito? Ano po ba implication ito? Itong announcement ni President Marcos na hindi na makikipag-usap, makikipag-contact sa ICC. Ang konteksto nito dahil nireject ng ICC yung appeal ng Philippine government na huwag ipagpatuloy daw yung ongoing formal investigation.

Well first and foremost this is unfortunate because it means that the Philippines will not engage with the international justice system exemplified by the ICC.

Secondly, just to be very precise, actually hindi pa na-deny ng ICC appeals chamber yung appeal. What was denied was the application for suspensive effect on the impugned decision. Meaning to say the Philippines was asking to suspend the impugned decision. Kasi ang impugned decision is to reopen the investigation.

May isang layer pa?

May isang layer pa. So hindi pa outright na-deny. Yung request for suspensive effect. Now in the domestic proceedings, ang analogy dyan ay parang TRO or preliminary injunction. So yun yung na-deny ng appeals chamber.

Dapat mag-participate pa yung Philippines. Baka naman mag-engage siya sa international justice system exemplified by the ICC.

Ang argument ng iba ay ayaw mo na pala. So dapat kahit anong sagot, wala na. Pero bakit nakikipag-communicate pa rin? So kung ganoon yung konteksto noong 2019 onwards, pag sinabing disengage ngayon, what should logically follow?

One, go through the process of pursuing its appeal. Number two, whatever will be the decision of the appeals chamber on the appeal of the Philippines, the Philippines will not anymore participate.

So wala na ngayong participation ng Philippines. So eventually it's effectively abandoning its appeal.

Pero kung sakaling mag-progress yung proseso sa ICC, ibig sabihin, tuloy-tuloy investigation tapos eventually magpalabas ang summons or even arrest warrant, pag sinabing disengage as in wala silang mapapala sa Pilipinas, wala na silang mapapalang kahit anong response or action. Ganoon po ba ibig sabihin?

Ganoon ang ibig sabihin. Kasi consistent naman na sinasabi ng Philippines that it will not actually cooperate with any investigation. So mukhang President Marcos is just giving a declaration that is actually consistent with the position of the Philippine government even as far as the administration of Mr. Duterte.

Pero bakit sumasagot pa rin?

Sumasagot na sila. I think there are also sectors in the Marcos administration that want to really exhaust the legal remedies available to the Philippines. Now let's be precise, these are legal remedies that are being invoked by the Philippine state but not by any accused because in so far as the investigation is concerned, wala pa naman kung accused.

So yun, inexhaust nila yung legal remedies. But actually in international law, it doesn't mean if you assail the jurisdiction, it doesn't mean if you participate in the legal remedies and in the proceedings, it doesn't mean you recognize the jurisdiction.

In fact, the Philippines is reiterating it. Kasi even sa appeals brief ng Philippines, it's still reiterating that the ICC allegedly has no jurisdiction. Although it's very clear that the ICC has jurisdiction. Kasi titignan mo lang naman yung timeframe. Titignan mo lang yung subject matter.

At saka nakalimutok yung number ng article sa Rome Statute. Bandang dulo yun. Diba sa last page?

1.7 I think. Part 2, 1.7. Yes.

Namiski umalis na yung isang state, mayroon pa rin silang obligation to cooperate at covered pa rin yung mga nangyaring krimen allegedly during the period na member pa sila ng Rome Statute at ICC. Diba?

Yes. Tama ka dyan Christian. In fact, that's the residual obligation of any state whether or not it withdrew. Kahit nag-withdraw siya, may residual, may naiwan pa rin mga obligasyon sa ICC. One of which is to actually cooperate with the ICC.

Ito naman sir, may related development din. So wala pa naman talagang akusado rito. So miski binabangkit lagi President Duterte, Bato Del Rosa, wala pa naman talagang accused. Pero ang announcement earlier ay yung isang senador, si Sen. Francis Tolentino, he actually volunteered daw to stand as lawyer of Sen. Bato Del Rosa sa ICC kung sakaling umabot sa punto na he would be considered as an accused.

Pwede ba yan? Sitting senator siya. Pwede ba practice siya?

Before the ICC as a lawyer or as a counsel.

Di ba ano yan sir? Baka naman i-assail din nila yung provision na yan. Tapos sabihin, baka applicable lang yung constitutional provision na yan sa domestic courts? Or yung wording ba na any? Kahit ICC covered?

Oo. Actually, ang argument dyan is, di ba, it's the constitution. So it applies to the Philippine territory. But it's actually, I'm stating that because it's a constitutional prohibition on any sitting senator. So in fact, it's being invoked before our Philippine domestic sphere.

Pero pwede rin ba siyang sabihin na ICC kung sakaling?

Makalagi doon, any court of justice.

So yun, yung wording na yan.

Contra-argument niya. Di ba ICC nito?

Aside from that legal issue or aspect of that argument, ano bang basa rito? Wala pa naman accused pero may mga ganyang pronouncements.

Oo nga. Number two, it actually presupposes that Sen. Bato de la Rosa will eventually become an accused. So in domestic parlance, mukhang guilty. May mga ganyang statements.

Tapos number three, talagang alam na nila na papunta doon sa kanila yung investigation na ito. Although wala pa naman talagang nag-commence na investigation ng Office of the Prosecutor. Kaya narayana lang po natin.

Pag ganyan ba sir, ganoon ba kahaba yung proseso na yan? Kasi nga marami rin yung mga gustong papanagutin yung former President Duterte and the rest sa ICC, yung mga relatives sa mga nabiktima ng drug war,

parang nabuhayin sila ng loob na naglabas ng arrest warrant for Vladimir Putin in the context of the Ukraine war.

Pero iba yung context noon. Hindi mo naman siya pwedeng gamitin sa template right away doon sa ongoing investigation dito kung meron man officially na. Meron bang implication talaga yan na pwedeng mapabilis din yun dito?

Well okay. This is really my frank assessment. Because the problem, if you try to compare and contrast it with the Ukraine situation, Ukraine is not a state party to the ICC.

It has not declared that it is recognizing the jurisdiction of the ICC. Therefore, practically it is cooperating and in fact it has cooperated with the ICC.

When the Office of the Prosecutor actually went on foot on Ukraine territory. So yun yung difference. May declaration ng kooperasyon, may intention ng kooperasyon. At talagang may kooperasyon yung Ukraine authorities sa Office of the Prosecutor.

Ang challenge sa Pilipinas, sinasabi ng Philippine government, hindi siya makapag-cooperate. In fact it's threatening to arrest any ICC investigator. So yun talaga yung pinaka-difference noon.

Kaya mukhang mahirap talaga magbigay ng set period kung ilang years ba ito or ilang months. I just want to say na magiging challenging ito dahil na-declare ng Philippine government na it will not engage and will not cooperate with the ICC.

Yung masinasabing arrest, yung threat of arrest, again hypothetically, assuming talaga mag-proceed yung mga members of ICC to do investigation work here at ipinaresto ng Pilipinas, ano yung magiging implications noon?

Well maraming implications noon. Una, baka maging pareha member of the international community because these are actually people imbued with authority by an international court system such as the ICC. So baka magiging pareha state sa international community.

Pero sakali ipa-aresto, on what grounds?

Well hindi ko yun maisip. Kasi syempre pag gina-aresto isang tao sa Pilipinas, meaning to say there was a crime that was committed. So entering the Philippines to do an investigation because of a crime against humanity or any international crime is definitely not a crime in itself.

So magkakaroon ng parang question. Papa-aresto mo pero on what grounds? Tapos meron pa implications kayo binabanggit?

Yes. So it will tarnish our international reputation especially since the Marcos administration supposedly is ongoing because of a theme of redemption. So paano na yung redemption kung in fact we are actually violating in some sense our international obligations under the ICC Rome Statute operating the ICC.

Puntahan naman natin at Atty. Gilbert yung sinasabi ng Marcos administration officials kasi kine-question na sovereignty, etc. Set aside muna natin yun, ang focus natin dito yung sinasabi nila eh kaya naman investigahan dito sa Pilipinas at ginagawa na naman daw yun.

So more recently may na-convict na police sa pagpatay doon sa dalawang binatilyo noong panahon ni President Duterte yung isa alias kulot. So yung mga ganyang kahit manakana kayo yung mga convictions, can that be considered as something that should tell the ICC that the legal, that the justice system here in the Philippines is working

and not unwilling and unable to genuinely prosecute yung ating gobyerno?

Number two, there are certain portions sa authorization ng ICCP trial chamber na hindi pa yung ginagawa ng Pilipinas. For example, investigation as to the Davao City PJ case that happened during November 2011 hanggang March 2019.

According to NGO estimates, ito yung talagang malaking portion ng PJ case under the war on drugs. Kasi somewhere between 15,000 to 25,000. So investigation as to vigilante style killings.

Yung bang na-convict crimes against humanity, hindi naman po. So there's no mirroring of what the investigation that the ICC has authorized to be reopened. So yun yung question doon.

So if the ICC can't issue an arrest warrant against particular people in the Philippines, pero ano ba implication nun? Kung hindi man ma-arresto dahil walang cooperation yung state party dati which is the Philippines, ano ba implication po na pag naglabas na maglabas ang arrest warrant ng ICC doon sa ilang mga pwede mag-iakusado?

So ano ba yung implication nun? Is that there is a fulfillment of the rights of victims which is the right to an effective remedy and to remedies of justice, reparations and truth. So malaking effect ito sa pag-fulfill ng victims' rights.

So ito yung international justice system. Kasi the arrest warrant is the first step for the ICC to acquire jurisdiction over the person of the defendant.

Maraming salamat din po.

So yun. Okay. Bago po tayo magtapos. So ginawa natin medyo siksik yung ating episode for today. Miski ganun kahaba, gusto ko lang pong batiin yung ilan po sa ating mga nakausap lately. Shout out lang po.

Ito nakalimutan ko mag-shout out sa kanya last week kay Ms. Ben Garcia. Tapos ito shout out kay Dr. Rafael Salonga. Madalas daw po kayo manood or makinig dito po sa ating Facts First podcast. Maraming maraming salamat po Dr. Rafael Salonga.

Tapos lastly, may mga nagtatanong po.

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Tapos meron pa isang version yan, Truth Bombs. Okay? So maraming maraming salamat po for joining us today.

And again, thank you very much po sa inyong patuloy na pagsuporta.