Patindi nang patindi ang Chinese propaganda laban sa Pilipinas kaugnay sa isyu ng West Philippine Sea. Makakausap natin si retired Supreme Court Senior Associate Justice Antonio Carpio.

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INTRO

... Okay take 2. Nakamute pala ang mic ko po. Okay sorry. Good evening sa inyo lahat. Ako si Christiana Siguera and welcome sa ating episode ngayong gabi ng Facts Verse.

... Today is August 17, Thursday. Maraming maraming salamat po sa patuloy niyo magsaporta dito sa ating programa. Again paumanhin, medyo hirap ako magsalita because of this mouth sore, medyo pagaling na pero hirap talaga, pinipilit natin.

... So nakikita natin may mga analysts, may mga trolls, may mga accounts na talaga naniniwala, ordinary Filipinos, doon sa Chinese propaganda na Pilipinas ay may kasalanan. Parang kaya pa dapat sisihin doon sa Sigalot sa West Philippine Sea, doon sa South China Sea.

... Kahit na napakalinaw po ng decision ng Permanent Court of Arbitration ng 2016, kahit na yung batas ay nasa side po natin, for some reason talaga napaka-consistent ng Chinese propaganda at mukhang maraming naniniwala ang Pilipino which is very unfortunate.

So para sa gabing ito, magpapatuloy po natin yung discussion regarding this. And we will actually devote this episode to fact-check some of the most outrageous claims or lies or Chinese propaganda that we have been seeing over the past few weeks, if not actually years na very consistent sila dyan.

... Retired Supreme Court Senior Associate Justice Antonio Carpio. Magandang gamit po sir. Thank you very much for joining us again sa Facts Verse."

... Deputy Chief of Mission ng China, nagkaroon sila ng press conference sa Pandisal Forum sa Kamuning, Quezon City. Sabi niya, yung Cairo Declaration at Potsdam Declaration during the Second World War awarded the Spratlys and Paracels to China.

Cairo Declaration in award rao. Pero if you go to the Cairo Declaration, there is no award to China. Ang sinabi ng Cairo Declaration, yung Manchuria, Formosa at Pescadores, Pescadores islands malapit sa Taiwan, ibabalik i-restore sa China.

Yung all other territories that Japan seized by violence and greed, the Japanese will be expelled from these territories. Period. Walang sinabi na those other territories will be handed over to China.

So klarong-klaro, yung Spratlys at Paracels will fall under that second category na all other territories seized by Japan by violence and greed, Japan will be deprived of these territories. Japan will be expelled.

So yung Cairo Declaration, very clear yan. That's the understanding of everybody. Yung Potsdam Declaration naman, merely reiterated the Cairo Declaration. Wala namang mention doon ng Paracels-Spratlys. Sinabi lang the Cairo Declaration will be implemented.

Tapos sa San Francisco Conference 1951, ito yung peace treaty that ended the Pacific War. Ang daming all nations involved in World War II represented there except China because may civil war sa China at the time.

So China was under the Republic of China under the Kuomintang Party. The rebels were the communists. So there was a civil war. So hindi sila, they were not represented.

But yung Russia, yung USSR, yung ally ng China, made a motion that the Spratlys and the Paracels be awarded to China. Nagbutuhan, 46 to... ang butuhan doon, 46 to 3.

46 against the award, 3 for the award and 1 abstention. So claro, claro, overwhelmingly the motion was defeated. Kaya yung simply lang yung peace conference of San Francisco, sinabi, Japan renounces all claim to the Spratlys and the Paracels.

Period. Walang sinabi kung kanino ibibigay yung Spratlys or the Paracels. Tsaka yung treaty between Japan and the Republic of China under the Kuomintang. Type na ito, sa type na sila in 1952.

Sinabi lang doon, the San Francisco Treaty on the Renunciation of the Territories by Japan and other issues are reiterated. We recognize Section 2 of the San Francisco Treaty.

So there is no award of the Spratlys or Paracels to China. But China continues to give this disinformation. Now if you don't fact check, talagang maniniwala ka kasi they say it with a straight face.

Kasabihin nila, na-award na sa amin yan ng Cairo Declaration, ng Potsdam Declaration, ng San Francisco Peace Treaty. Yung San Francisco Treaty, the People's Republic of China denounced it as illegal.

How can they claim rights under a treaty that they even declared as illegal? At that time, when it was going on, they declared it as illegal. Kasi hindi sila nakaparticipate. Ngayon, sinasabi nila in-award sa amin yan.

You see the inconsistency of all this. But lahat ito can be exposed as fake, disinformation. All we have to do is to fact check.

Okay. Ito ba sir yung pag-cite nila ng Potsdam Declaration, ng Cairo Declaration at San Francisco Peace Treaty. Matagal na po ba nilang ginagamit yan sa propaganda machine nila about the South China Sea or fairly recent po?

Matagal na. Paulit-ulit nila yan. Paulit-ulit ko rin sinasabi, mali kayo. In fact, some Filipinos, I know of one Filipino belonging to the Tamoning Pandisal Forum, wrote an article sa China yan.

Because under the Treaty of Taipei, binigay yan sa China, the Spratlys and the Paracels. Filipino ito. Writing that the Treaty of Taipei awarded the Spratlys and the Paracels.

Dalawang parties lang sa Treaty of Taipei, Japan and China, Republic of China. How can Japan award it na pumirman na siya renouncing? In 1951, Japan renounced all title and claim to the Spratlys and Paracels.

In 1952, nagka-treaty ang Japan with Taiwan. Sinabi ng treaty, we recognize the San Francisco disposition of all these territories. So how can Japan now, how can they say that Japan awarded the Spratlys and the Paracels to China?

One year before that, Japan already renounced all claims. In fact, the treaty itself, Treaty of Taipei, said we recognize the San Francisco Treaty. Talagang they twist everything. If you don't fact-check, you will be misled.

One minute ulit din. Eventually, it will become fact sa mata ng maraming tao. Ang tanong ko po sa inyo, do you think this Chinese propaganda machine is actually effective? Is it winning, especially at this time?

Sabi nila, China is an old civilization. Siguro totoo kanila yan since 2,000 years ago because they were not told the actual facts. Maraming naniniwala at that time. I've been talking to them and they said China is an old civilization.

But when we submitted all the documents to the arbitral tribunal, sinabi ng arbitral tribunal, there is no basis. There is no historical basis for that. Talagang wala naman. At that 2,000 years ago, China didn't even care about the Spratlys or the Paracels.

Ano sa tingin niyo po yung effective ways to actually combat this disinformation coming from the Chinese propaganda machine at this time?

Well the effective way is fact-check and disseminate. Ngayon, if you talk to the Europeans and Americans, tatawa na yung nine-dash line because they understand.

So we've solved that problem. In fact, nahihiya na yung mga Chinese to keep on repeating the nine-dash line. So nag-invento na sila ng four-shas.

Yung four-shas nila ngayon, pareho din. It will not pass master ng own clause. So talagang wala. They're at a loss. Ngayon, they're claiming now that it's the Cairo Declaration,

it's the Potsdam Declaration, San Francisco Declaration, Treaty of Taipei. Wala naman. Pero may naluloko sila, Filipino writers just follow them hook, line and sinker.

Talagang nagugulong. Tapos yung mga Filipino writers pa, talagang ang tapang na tama raw ang China. They just copy the propaganda of China without fact-checking.

Kasi nakikita ko. Alam po yung mga articles ng China. Copy-paste yung mga Filipino. Kinakapy lang nila. Nakikita ko pareho yung galing sa Chinese press release.

Ano bang basa niya? Mukha bang naniniwala sila sa Chinese propaganda o baka talagang part sila ng Chinese propaganda machine for some reason?

I think they've become part already kasi ayaw sila makinig. But it's our duty, tayo, to win them over by argument. By saying here are the facts, now you decide.

E pag ayaw pa nila maniwala, they are a minority. Siyempre pag ayaw pa maniwala talaga despite all these facts, iba nang usapan nyo. That's beyond our persuasion already.

Sorry Justice. Napakaganda nung sinasabi nyo. We win them over with the facts, with sound arguments. Pero kasi in this day and age of disinformation, parang baka sabihin ng iba hindi yan sapat.

In some cases baka naiba. Kasi kung talagang alam mong mali pero ipapakalit mo pa, baka iba na ang dahilan. Baka naman nagkakabayaran na. That's what I want to talk about. Kasi we have to do some reality check here.

There are 12 farms in China, there are 12 farms in Russia, and in other places, even in the Philippines. Alam natin yan. That's why we have to fight disinformation with facts. We have to do research really. Unfortunately, sila, they are paid.

They do it regularly. They have all the time to do it tayo. We do it on our own because of love of country or we love the truth. We succeeded already in convincing the Western world that China has no claim to the South China Sea. Nanalo na tayo dyan.

Q. Pagbibigay ng platform ng ilang mga Pilipino, sometimes even sa media. I know this is a conversation that touches on press freedom. Pero sometimes dapat pag-usapan din. Is it worth it to provide platform for an obvious lie? Kayo po ano tingin niyo po yan?

It's a lie. We can come from China, from another country, and enter our country. So what's happening now is they have spokesmen here, but they could easily broadcast that through the internet. So we have to face that. Because in China, they have a firewall, the great firewall of China.

So whatever I say, my YouTube lectures, my books, that's not available in China. Pero ang Chinese propaganda available in the Philippines. So dihado tayo dyan. But that is the nature of free speech, that's the nature of democracy.

It means that we have just to work harder. Mas dapat mas masipag tayo to counter it. Because sa kanila, they cannot read us, they cannot hear us, they cannot see us, their people.

So their people know only one line, their Chinese line. In fact, from grade school to college, they teach their students that China owned the South China Sea since 2,000 years ago.

They really believe it. Sincerely, I've been talking to some of their students. Talagang naniniwala sila, no that's ours. Because they have been taught only that story.

Yan ang problema. Tayo, both sides, and then we decide what is the truth. So we've been discussing this for a long time. How do we convince the Chinese people?

Well sabi ko, at that time, about 100 million, 80 million to 100 million Chinese go abroad as tourists. So sabi ko, we can catch them there.

They can go to the internet when they are outside their country. Kasi hindi in their country, bawal. Wala silang access to YouTube, to Facebook.

So that is still our problem. But we can mitigate this. Katulad yan, Ateneo and UP agreed to establish Confucius Institute.

So China can go to Ateneo and UP and disseminate information about the South China Sea, their narrative. Pero tayo, we cannot do that. We don't have a counterpart Rizal Institute.

So sabi ko, dapat yan reciprocal. If China wants Confucius Institute in your school, your school should have the right to put up one in their school also para reciprocal.

But China, one way palagi yan. They will take advantage of your liberal order, but you cannot do the same in China.

Eto pala sir. Do you also get the sense na mas nagiging aggressive yung Chinese propaganda on the West Philippine Sea and against the Philippine interest lately?

Well, ang tingin ko dyan because the Malampaya is running out of gas and we have to go now to Reed Bank to get the gas.

There's a planned joint patrol with the U.S. before the end of the year. When that happens, papadala natin yung ating survey ship and drilling ship to Reed Bank.

So I think they're ramping up their intimidation now. Kaya nag-water cannon sila sa Ayungin Shoal as a message to us na huwag ninyo gawin yan. Don't go to Reed Bank.

They're part of their intimidation yan. Now pag nagpa-intimidate tayo, talo tayo. Wala tayong gas, tataas yung presyo ng energy natin, electricity natin will go up, may estimate 50 percent.

Talagang babagsak yung economy natin. Inflation will be very high. So this is really a matter of national interest that we have to get the gas in Reed Bank.

Speaking of the incident sa Ayungin, binomba ng water cannon yung mas maliit na Philippine Coast Guard vessel. Pero ang naging sagot doon, napag-usapan po natin ito last week,

ginaslight yung Pilipinas na tayo may kasalanan. Then pinapakinggan ko yung mouthpiece ng China dito sa Pilipinas sa mga Pilipino.

Sinasabi nila, pinayagan yung unang vessel ng Pilipinas para magdala ng supplies sa mga sundalo natin sa BRP Sierra Madre sa Ayungin. Ang hindi rin pinayagan, yung pangalawang vessel na ang intention ay kumpunihin yung nabubulok o bulok na BRP Sierra Madre natin.

What do you think of this? Kasi kung alam natin ang issue, wala namang pakialam ng China kung anong dapat natin gawin dyan. Kasi sa atin yan. Pero lumulutang pa rin ito para bang kasalanan natin dahil gusto natin kumpunihin yung barco.

But you have to go back. Who has exclusive right to that area? Sabi ng arbitral tribunal, Ayungin Shoal is low tide and it is part of the EEZ of the Philippines. Ngayon pag EEZ mo, all the natural resources are yours.

And second, more importantly, you have exclusive right to put up an artificial island or artificial structure. So if you want to put up a beach BRP Sierra Madre there as our structure, we have the exclusive right. Hindi tayo pwede pigilan ng kahit anong bansa.

Automatically, pag exclusive economic zone, you have the exclusive right to put up a structure there. Yung BRP Sierra Madre because it doesn't sell anymore, that is a structure. Kaya dinadalahan natin ng construction material. That's a structure.

So we should argue that way. Kasi ang premise nila sa kanila, mali yan. Hindi naman sa kanila yan. That is our EEZ.

So what are your fears of lost opportunities in terms of dealing with the China issue?

Well, we are in a much better position under the Marcos Jr. administration compared to the Duterte administration. Talagang China ang pinapabaro ng Duterte administration.

Duterte ang mag-fishing sa exclusive economic zone natin sa West Philippine Sea. Tinatawag yung exclusive because the Philippines has exclusive right to get the fish. Pero pinayagan yung China.

Yung mga Chinese fishermen, they're the biggest fishing fleet in the world. Kaya nakaubos ang ating mga isda dyan. That's why tumaas yung galunggong because they get galunggong tapos binibenta sa atin.

Pero galing yan sa West Philippine Sea. So we are in a much better position and I'm happy that that's the position of President Bongbong Marcos.

To my surprise, I'm happily surprised that he practically reversed the Duterte policy. So sabi niya, we will get the gas there.

Pag si Duterte, he had six years to do that. Kasi mauubos na yung gas sa Malampaya. Dapat pinaghandaan na yan. Dapat pinadala natin yung drill and survey ship there long ago.

Kasi it takes at least four years to develop Malampaya. Ngayon huli na. Magkakaroon ng gap.

Pag ipapadala natin yan ngayon, four years later pa bago natin makuha yung gas, wala na yung gas. Mauubos na yung gas sa Malampaya in two years.

So talagang may iipit tayo. We have to import LNG for some time, assuming we can open Reed Bank.

Okay. Kung ganoon yung situation, parang foregone conclusion na talagang magkakaroon tayo ng energy crisis dito dahil hindi natin mapakinabangan, at least ma-explore.

Exploration pa lang, not even exploitation yung pinag-uusapan sa Reed Bank. Tama po ba?

Tama yan. There will be a gap. Kasi assuming today we can go there, it will take four years. Kasi gagawa pa tayo ng pipeline from Reed Bank to Malampaya to connect it.

Para from Malampaya dadalhin ng gas sa Batanggas. Pina-pipeline yan. So it cannot happen in one or two years.

Kaya nga si Duterte sabi niya, well hindi ko na problema yan, that's after my term. Napaka, that's bad.

Because dapat na-foreseen na yan. Everybody saw it coming. Sabi ng mga energy people natin, pag hindi natin ma-develop yan four years ago, talagang magkaka...

So there will be a gap. And that gap now is I would look at it about minimum of two years. Pero pag hindi pa natin ma-develop yan by next year, talagang wala na. By the end of the term of Marcos, mataas pa rin ang gas, ang energy.

Pag ulit-ulit binabanggit ang issue na yan, sometimes sa iba mga tao, madaling ma-fire up sa issue ng West Philippine Sea. Kasi talagang ma-ignite ang patriotism natin. Pero it's really a gut issue.

Tapos talagang hindi natin na-exploit ang resources na dapat sa atin, mararamdaman na napakaraming Pilipino.

Can you just imagine that? What will happen? Inflation yan because wala kang electricity. So how will you process your food? You have to use generators. Expensive.

Talagang it will be very hard for us and all those locators, foreign investors, they will have to close their factories here because your power rate will go up by 50 percent.

When you are in manufacturing, your energy cost is about 30 to 40 percent of your operating cost.

And as it is, yung power, I think pinakamahal o isa sa pinakamahal sa Asia, yan sa atin, sa Pilipinas.

Yes. We are one of the second highest to Japan tayo before. But I think pwede na natin lalampasan ang Japan ngayon.

Of course may impact sa investments. Kunwari foreign investor ka, bakit kaya dito maglalagak ng negosyo, mahal-mahal ng enerhya. So lilipad ka sa ibang bansa.

Ito nga pala po recently, napagusapan natin ngayon yung how the Duterte administration dealt with China compared to how the Marcos administration is dealing with China now.

Pero recently ang announcement, yung ating dating DFA secretary, dating si Secretary Teddy Boyloxin, siya naman yung tinalagyang special envoy to China.

What do you think is the message being sent here by the Marcos administration?

Alam mo si Secretary Teddy Boyloxin, he was very firm in defending our sovereign rights of West Philippine Sea.

Despite the favoritism of Duterte in favor of China, he was able to stonewall and his views prevailed. That's why I think it's good that he's there.

Ang sinasuggest nila dati ang gawing special envoy si former President Duterte. E sabi ko, pag ganyan wala tayong negotiator because Duterte is on the other side.

So mabuti na lang, I'm really happy that it's Ambassador Teddy Boyloxin who has been designated. Kasi I know he will protect our sovereign rights in the West Philippine Sea.

I've seen him do it. Remember yung memorandum of understanding, nagpirmahan tayo with China. Tapos okay yan, I supported that.

Kasi under the MOU, in every service contract, binirecognize ng service contractor that the oil and gas belongs to the Philippines and Philippine law will govern the contract.

Yung MOU says China will invest under the service contract system of the Philippines. Nagpirmahan tayo yan. Later on, sabi ng China, tanggalin natin yung provision na the oil and gas belong to the Philippines.

Tsaka yung provision that Philippine law will govern the contract. Teddy Boy stood his ground. Sabi niya pag ganyan, terminate na natin.

That's why those two agreements were terminated, the MOU and the terms of reference. He knows the consequences. Kasi pag tinanggal mo yun, you violate our constitution.

Kasi sabi ng constitution, the state shall protect its marine wealth in its exclusive economic zone. Constitution yan.

And reserve the use and enjoyment of the wealth in the exclusive economic zone to Filipinos alone. Kaya tinatawag yan exclusive.

If we agree with China to remove those two provisions, parang nanalo sila. Reverse natin yung arbitral award. Tama si Ambassador Teddy Boy and I'm happy that he's been appointed.

Q. Not to push the envelope, pero parang di ba impeachable offense na yan pag clearly unconstitutional yung memorandum?

Kaya sinabi ni Secretary Teddy Boy noong time na yan, they tried to explore it, push it as far as they could within the bounds of the constitution pero talagang hindi ubre.

He said if we make another step, babagsak na tayo, we'll be in the constitutional abyss. Tama siya.

Q. If we're talking the Philippines, tayo pa yung sinisise dito sa nangyayari sa ating exclusive economic zone. Kung meron kayo kausap sa ordinary Filipino, ano yung sasabihin niyo sa kanya on how to view this particular issue?

Well, ganito. First, kanino yung union shul, kanino yung reed bank? Under own clause, under international law, sabi ng tribunal atin yan. Under our constitution, sinabi atin yan.

So under domestic law and international law, sa atin yan. Ang China, anong sinasabi ng China? Sa kanila yan since 2,000 years ago. False. No historian will accept that.

The tribunal also said there is no proof whatsoever that China had sovereignty over the South China Sea since 2,000 years ago. Klaro, mali ang China at tayo ang tama within our constitution and international law.

So sinabi na ng tribunal. Tribunal created under own clause. So kahit saan sila pupunta, even the world, the Europe, entire Europe, North America, Canada and the U.S., China, South Korea, Australia, India, ASEAN, they all agree.

We made a headcount, konti lang. Not more than eight countries support the position of China. All the rest, either sa atin or abstain. But we have I think four to five times more countries supporting us than China.

So everything is in our favor because we follow the law. We stay within the facts. Historically, we use historical facts, legal. So that's why China is isolated.

So dapat niyan, tayong mga Pilipino, we be united. We should be on the same page. Sinabi na ng European Union, tama kayo. Mayroon pang mga Pilipino nagsasabi, hindi sa amin yan, sa China yan.

Somebody wrote from the Pandesal Forum that the Treaty of Taipei awarded the Paracels and the Spratlys to China. How can, dalawang parties lang sa Treaty of Japan and China.

Japan pumirma na ng 1951 San Francisco Peace Treaty na they renounce everything. How can they say na ibigay ko yan sa Republic of China? It's really crazy.

And I think those who spread this information owe a duty to our nation, to our Filipino people that they should just correct themselves and just go to the facts.

It's easy to, katulad ng title ng show mo, facts first. Facts first so you will have everything, you appreciate everything correctly.

It's easy to just go to the facts. Facts first. Facts first.

Okay. Yan po si Justice Antonio Carpio. Pasensya na kayo, medyo nag-feedback yung pag siya in-interview natin kasi I think meron siya isang device na nakabukas.

But I think he's also monitoring the discussion. Kaya ginagawa ko, min-mute ko na lang muna siya pag ako nagsasalita para walang feedback.

Anyway, I hope mas nasasundan niyo po yung issue. Kung napapansin niyo po, two weeks na natin, sunod-sunod na pinag-uusapan itong nangyari sa Iungin Show, yung West Philippine Sea.

Kasi alam niyo po, very disturbing sa akin yung aggressive China propaganda. Matagal na po nilang ginagawa yan pero ako napapansin ko lately, mas nagiging aggressive sila.

And ang tanong, well-funded ba ito? At nakakasama po kasi, nakakasakit po ng loob. Ilang mga Pilipino pa, so-called experts, so-called analysts,

sila yung parang nagbebenta pa ng ating karapatan para dating po dito sa ating exclusive economic zone at parang sila pa nag-undermine ng ating position regarding this.

Kasi ito, don't take my word for it. Kayo mismo magsaliksik. Huwag kayo magpapaniwala rin sa mga nagkasabi na hindi naman ating ang Iungin Show, hindi naman ating ang West Philippine Sea, sa China naman lahat yan. Napaka-outrageous, napaka-bogus mo nun.

Ang gawin niyo po, don't take my word for it. Talagang pumunta kayo sa datos, basahin niyo mismo ang decision ng Permanent Court of Arbitration ng 2016 nakalatag puro napakalinaw. So see for yourself kung sino nagsasabi ng totoo at kung sino nagpapagamit sa China.

Hindi kayo magpapaniwala rin sa sinasabi ng iba mga trolls at so-called analyst or China's mouthpieces dito sa Pilipinas. Sinasabi, pag sinalungat daw yung kanilang mga sinasabi, ikaw naman pro-US. Grabe no? Hindi po totoo e necessarily.

At saka doon sa legal, natural makikita sila bilang kaadyado natin. Pero it's not to say na nagpapagamit tayo sa either side. Again ultimately we have to protect our national interest dito. Tayo at tayo dapat ang makikinabang dito. Yan po ang tinatawag na national interest.

Bago po tayo magtapos, nagpapashoutout si Kerr Biyuya Lim. Birthday daw niya ngayon. Happy birthday Kerr. Magandang gabi sa iyo. Happy birthday.

Tapos si Rox Calvit. Watching from Toronto. Shoutout sa iyo.

Magkita kita po tayo bukas. Maraming salamat po. At salamat po sa panonood dito sa ating programa ngayong gabi. Ako po si Christian Esguerra.

Thank you for watching!