Busisiin natin ang bagong mapa ng China at kung ano ang implikasyon nito sa ating exclusive economic zone. Watch our interview with retired Supreme Court Senior Associate Justice Antonio Carpio.

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Welcome to tonight's episode of Facts Verse ako po si Christian Esguerra.

So today is August 29, Tuesday. Maraming maraming salamat po sa inyong patuloy na pagtangkilik dito sa ating programa. Alam nyo po ang dami dami nangyayari sa ating bansa as always pero lately maraming mga mababigat na mga balita.

... Pero nung nag-ingay ang publiko, mukhang nape-pressure ang otoridad para gumawa ng tamang hakbang laban sa abusadong dating polis. Yan ang pag-uusapan natin bukas.

... So ang mga bilista, mga mano na lahat, mga supposed thinkers na di umano ang Pilipino na sa kanilang pag-position sa issue ng China, sa pang-bubuli at pang-aabuso ng China sa atin, para bang kinakampihan nila ang nang-aabuso kesa sa inaabuso which is of course the Philippines pagdating po dito sa issue ng West Philippine Sea.

... Pero recently, dumabas ang 2023 edition ng Chinese map at maraming nagulat, maraming nainis. Yan ang mag-uusapan natin dahil mukhang China is trying to solidify its bogus claims dito sa karagatan ng South China Sea at hindi lang mga Pilipino, hindi lang tayo inaiinis o nababanas dito.

Q1. Pag-usapan natin ng Supreme Court Senior Associate Justice Antonio Carpio para bigyan tayo ng malalim na pag-analyze o pag-busisi dito sa issue? Magandang gabi Justice Carpio and thank you for joining us again dito sa Facts Verse.

Q1. Pag-usapan natin ng Supreme Court Senior Associate Justice Antonio Carpio para bigyan tayo ng malalim na pag-analyze o pag-busisi dito sa issue? Magandang gabi Justice Carpio and thank you for joining us again dito sa Facts Verse.

Originally, yung unang lumabas ito in 1948, 11 dashes yan. Sometime in 1950-51 nagkaroon ng agreement ng China, Communist China and the North Vietnamese at the time sa Gulf of Tonkin na demarcate nila yung maritime zone nila sa Gulf of Tonkin.

So tinanggal yung dalawang dashes. From 11 naging 9. For a long time 9 yan. Ngayon binago ng China ginawang 10. After the Arbitral Award came out kasi sabi ng Arbitral Award, yung 9 dash line na yan walang base yan, no historical basis, no legal basis to claim maritime zones.

To claim exclusive economic zone, extended continental shelf. But the tribunal did not rule on the sovereignty issue. Sovereignty means kung sino may-ari ng mga isla, yung above water high tide ng mga geologic features.

Ang award ng Arbitral Tribunal, yung exclusive economic zone lang beyond the territorial sea. So sabi ng Arbitral Tribunal, the 9 dash line cannot serve as basis to claim any resources beyond the territorial sea in the South China Sea.

So there is no historical basis for China to claim. So ngayon, after that award, China decided to, naghanap sila ng other legal basis to claim. So sabi nila 4 shas, hindi na 9 dash line.

There are 4 archipelagos raw. Paracels, Spratlys, Scarborough Shoal, Macclesfield Bank, Pratas. Kaya lang wala rin base talaga. It does not comply with UNCLOS.

So ngayon, bumalik sila sa 9 dash line. Di nagdagan nila ng another dash sa western side ng Taiwan facing the Pacific Ocean. So this claim of China, this new 10 dash line, doesn't add any legitimacy to their previous claim.

So may konting twist ito. Kasi sa 9 dash line, sa bagong map na ito, sinama ng China yung areas sa India, Aksai Chin and Chalpradesh.

So the Indians now, galit sila ngayon. You can watch them in their social media and in their TV. They're mad at this new map of China.

Sinama yung Lunachal Pradesh which is a state in, a very large state in India at Aksai Chin. So two areas in India sinama. Kaya galit yung mga Indians ngayon.

Okay. Tayo po on the part of the Philippines, how should we deal with this new China map? Kasi kahit bogo siya, kahit pagbalibaligta rin, baka may mga bola, may mga convinced. So in terms of response, how should we Filipinos respond to this?

We should respond by saying that issue has been resolved already. Tapos na yan. Resolved na yan ng Arbitral Tribunal because the Arbitral Tribunal said there is no historical basis for China to claim the waters or resources beyond the territorial sea falling within the 9 dash line.

So in effect, that was struck down by the Arbitral Award, the 9 dash line as far as maritime zones are concerned. So we just reiterate the Arbitral Award. Tsaka yung Arbitral Award naman natin supported by all the EU countries, by the US and Canada,

by Australia, Japan, South Korea and India and other ASEAN states like Vietnam and Malaysia and Indonesia because they benefit from that. Kasi the 9 dash line was struck down. And it does not conflict with their claim because hindi naman kasama yung territorial dispute sa award.

Okay. Tapakalino ang binabanggit nyo. Hindi territorial issue o dispute yung sinetel ng Permanent Court of Arbitration, maritime entitlements. Pero marami kasi nagti-twist ng issue na yan.

So maraming umaalma dito sa bagong 10 dash line map ng China. Pero how seriously should the countries affected actually respond to this? And pwede nyo bang ipaliwanag, paano po ba yung proseso?

Pag naglabas ba ng mapa yung isang bansa, saan po ba dapat nire-register and paano po ba siya nagkakaroon ng tinatawag na legitimacy?

Well, sabi ng arbitral tribunal, those maps are not binding on other countries unless submitted to the United Nations. Kaya yung 1948 9 dash line map ng China, kahit nalinabas nila 1948, sabi ng tribunal, it did not bind the Philippines and other countries kasi it was only in 2009 na sinabit nila sa UN.

And after it was submitted to the UN in 2009, lahat tayo nagprotesta so we did not acquiesce. Ganyan din yan. Pag pinalabas nila ngayon, hindi naman submitted to the UN, legally it does not bind, it does not affect.

But in any event I think countries like India will just protest, hindi nila intain mag-submit yan sa UN. Because China, sasabihin ng China ngayon, PR for public purposes, o hindi kayo nag-protest.

Dalawang taon na, tatlong taon na, hindi dapat mag-protest kung hindi sinabit sa UN. Pero gagamitin ng China yan, hindi nila isasubmit sa UN. So pag hindi ka nag-protest, sabihin nila nag-acquiesce ka na. So I think just to play safe, mag-protest na tayo.

Kahit hindi pa nare-register sa UN, mag-protest na po, tama po ba?

O kasi sinabi ng China, nasa Hague tayo, hindi nag-protest ang Philippines, 1948 pa yan, ang tagal na, nag-protest sila 2009 lang. Sabi ng tribunal, hindi naman binding yan until you've submitted to the UN.

Pero alam mo, ang PR nila, ang palabas nila sa social media, let's just oppose it right now and say wala yan, kawalang kwenta-kwenta yan. It does not change the arbitral award."

... E baka magamit siya to legitimize China's bogus claims sa more than 85% of the South China Sea using that for their PR stunt. Kasi hindi naman siguro ganoon kabilis ang pagsaliksik. Teka, ni-register ba yan sa UN? E baka nakita na may mapa in China bagong bago. The implications when it comes to propaganda."

So oppose it already.

... So the territory nila exactly the same color as the nine dashes before. Ngayon magiging ten na yan. So ang implication yan, they consider the area within the nine dash line or ten dash line as their national territory.

... Pwedeng dumaan mga ship. Parang may freedom of navigation, pwede kayo dumaan. Alam mo, ganyan yan China. Creeping yan. Sasabihin nila, ano lang yan, hindi total sovereignty yan kasi pwede pa kayo dumaan.

... Pero ang mga resources, amin. Pero pwede kayo dumaan. Later on, sasabihin nila, amin yan. Pag dumaan kayo, request permission muna sa amin. Ganyan yan. Ngayon ang sabi nila, dashes yan kasi ang meaning yan, pwede ka dumaan.

... Pero ang mga resources, isda, oil, gas, amin yan. That's the meaning of the nine dash line. But eventually, babagoy nila yan at nakapwesto na sila. Dapat niya, klaruhin agad natin, kahit ang resources wala kayo yan kasi nasa EEZ ng Pilipinas yan.

Q1. This is literally no different from Eli Pamatong, the late Eli Pamatong, declaring himself as President of the Philippines just because he says it and believes it, it doesn't make it so. Tama ba ang ganyan pagtingin po?

... Kasi sinabi nila, kanila yan, kanila na. Kaya pumunta tayo sa dahig. Kasi sabi ng China, amin yan. Sabi natin atin yan. We needed a third party na neutral na may authority under international law. Kaya pumunta tayo roon. At saka we can cite that award now.

Pareho pa rin yan.

Q1. What do you say to that?

... as a claim to resources in the South China Sea. They never said the tribunal did not invalidate the claim of China under the nine dash line for maritime resources.

Pero ang mga Pilipino na kumakampi sa China, sinasabi nila the nine dash line, the arbitral tribunal did not invalidate the nine dash line even as to the maritime claim.

Kasi dalawang dispute yan. Territorial dispute and maritime dispute. Sabi ko nga, there are more Chinese than the Chinese. There are more Pope-ish than the Pope.

Because ang China, ayaw nila, they don't want to say that. Kasi klaro naman talaga it was invalidated as far as the maritime dispute is concerned.

Yan ang nakakalungkot kasi sumusobra sila. There are even more Chinese than the Chinese.

... And then papalabasin kayo nagpapakalat ng fake news. Tapos siyempre pipitikin din ang inyong lingkod. I mean nag-iisip ko lang yan.

Di ba sabi nila na I was lying when I said the arbitral award struck down the Chinese claim in the South China Sea.

Kasi they quoted a portion of the arbitral award that sinabi ng tribunal, we are not striking down the nine dash line as far as the islands of the South China Sea,

as far as the territorial dispute. Island is a territory. Tama naman because maritime dispute lang.

So sinabi nila yan. It was not struck down. Hindi nila dini-differentiate. From the very beginning, dini-differentiate ko yan.

Tsaka when I speak of the South China Sea, the claim of China in the South China Sea, yung maritime dispute yan.

Tama ba yung territorial dispute, of course hindi naman siya isesettle sa permanent court of arbitration. Saan ba siya dinadala sa international court of justice?

Ang territorial dispute, there is no treaty where countries gave their consent in advance to the submission of the dispute to arbitration.

Kasi all states are sovereign. So an international tribunal cannot acquire jurisdiction right away unless the sovereign state agrees.

There must be a consent. Ngayon dun sa UNCLOS, when you become a member of UNCLOS, you give your consent in advance.

In case of any dispute in the future, you already agree in advance that you submit it to arbitration compulsory.

But that's only for the maritime dispute. Sa territorial dispute, walang ganyan. There is no treaty like that,

except in the Pac of Bogota in South America, nagkaroon sila ng treaty na kahit territorial dispute, we give our consent in advance.

Pero outside of the Pac of Bogota in South America, wala. So before we can sue China on the territorial dispute,

normally sa ICJ yan, International Court of Justice, China must consent and China will never consent.

Okay. I get the basic difference. So kailangan talaga may consent and no contending parties.

Kasi kaya ako naalala yung ICJ. Correct me if I'm wrong, there was a time, I think this was during the 70s,

the Philippines was willing to bring the issue of Saba, the portion of Saba na pinag-aawayan ng Pilipinas and Malaysia sa ICJ.

It was Malaysia that wasn't willing to bring the case there. Tama po ba?

Tama yan. Both parties must submit it voluntarily to arbitration. Pero dito sa maritime dispute, nagkaroon ng UNCLOS.

So if you ratify UNCLOS, you give your consent in advance to any future dispute. Walang ganyan sa territorial dispute.

Okay. Ito pala, ano pa yung nakikita niyo pong implications nito? Kasi kanina binanggit niya early during our discussion na yung India nagagalit.

Binabasa ko rin yung mga articles na lumabas because of this 2023 edition of the Chinese map.

Talagang galit yung mga nasa India and we know na matagal na rin nagigirihan yung China at India.

When it comes to implications, what exactly is the game of China here and isn't China courting more wrath coming from its neighbors by virtue of this?

Yes. Magdami magagalit dyan. Of course, ang tawag dyan cartographic aggression, cartographic invasion. That's flexing of muscle.

Pero sa India, very tense yan kasi that's a border dispute. They're facing each other sa border. So that's a very sensitive issue.

They've gone to war already in 1962 and recently nagsusuntukan sila kasi may rules sila na no bringing of firearms pag nagmi-meeting sila o nagkikita sila.

So nagsusuntukan na lang sila but still the soldiers die. So it's a very emotional issue there. These are nuclear armed countries so it's very dangerous kung magkagera sila doon.

Malaking area ang involved. Doon sa Arunachal Pradesh, it's almost like a fourth of our land territory, about 62,000 square kilometers involved.

Malaking area ang pinag-aawayan.

Now ordinarily, kung mayroon isang bansa na nagbabrandish ng, ito yung bago mapa namin. So ten dashes na yan. So yung maritime waters ng mga nakapaligid dyan, amin yun.

Base dito sa mapa namin. Ubra po ba kung ang response ng mga apektado mga bansa? Kumbaga tawa na. Nakakatawa yan. It's a big joke.

It depends upon the person or the country brandishing that bogus map. Pero ang tanong ko po, this is no ordinary country. This is the second biggest economy in the world. This is China.

Can we afford to take that collective attitude toward that?

Hindi. Kasi you have to tie this. Yung China doing it incrementally. In 2021, China enacted the new China Coast Guard Law. Nagkaroon silang bagong Coast Guard Law.

Sabi nila, yung Coast Guard namin is authorized to use their weapons to fire on foreign ships that fish, that exploit, that explore within the Nine-Dash Line.

So for the first time, nagkaroon silang batas at pinaalam nila sa buong mundo na yung Coast Guard nila may authority to fire their weapons on foreign ships.

A few weeks ago, they used that authority. When they water cannon our supply ships to Sierra Madre, BRP Sierra Madre, that's the implementation of their new Coast Guard Law.

Ngayon, linabas nila itong mapa. So talagang sunod-sunod itong ginagawa nila. They want to counter the effect of the arbitral award.

So dapat yan, we should oppose this. Kasi China is doing it incrementally. Pa konti-konti yan. Pero if you lose your patience, matatalo ka.

So you really have to fight them for every step of the way. So we oppose this. Kaya sabi ko nga, yung ginawa nila sa Union Shoal, we should bring that to the UN General Assembly.

Kasi that's a violation of the UN Charter.

Eto sir pala, speaking of the incremental approach of China regarding this issue. Tingin nyo ba it's only a matter of time, total nilatag na nila dito sa kanilang bogus map, itong kanilang 10 dashes.

It's only a matter of time na mag-implement sila ng ADIS, yung Air Defense Identification Zone dito sa parte na apektado tayo?

Well we have long been expecting China to do something like that. Pero they can put an ADIS if they have a complete coverage of the South China Sea.

Kasi yung air and naval base nila, meron sila sa Paracel, sa Woody Island. Meron silang tatlo sa Spratly. Kulang sila dito sa northern side, sa Scarborough side.

Kaya kinuha nila yung Scarborough kasi tatayuan nila yan ng air and naval base para kompleto sila. May triangle of air and naval bases sila.

They have a full coverage of the South China Sea. Sabi nga ng U.S. that's a red line. Sabi rin natin that's a red line if you build on Scarborough Shoal.

So tinatantsya nila, they're doing it incrementally. Naghahanap sila ng right time. Nasa plano nila yan. Kasi during the time of President Obama, they were already sending their dredger.

Papunta na ng Scarborough Shoal yung dredger. Hininto lang ng Americans na there will be serious consequences pag ituloy ninyo yan.

But you can see they have the plan. So magkakaroon yan but they need to put up an air and naval base at Scarborough Shoal.

Q&A

China and Philippines must comply. Lately, India sumama na. Sabi ng India we support the arbitral award. Then the latest is South Korea. Sinabi ng South Korea we support the arbitral award.

So padami ng padami. Nagkaroon ng count ang ADR Institute. China has about only at most 10 countries supporting them. Tayo mga four times that. The rest have not shown any position yet.

That's why I'm saying if we go to the UN General Assembly, sa starting point pa lang lamang tayo. Mas madaming nagsusupport ngayon sa atin.

Eto Justice finally. Ang linaw ng pagkakalatag nyo. May mga nagsasuggest dito na people like you, actually kayo mismo, dapat nasa forefront ng magpapaliwanag at sa strategy building ng ating pamahalaan.

So my question ko po bilang panghuli, nagre-reach out po ba sa inyo or nag-reach out na po ba yung administration? So siguro hoping to top your services regarding this very serious problem in front of us.

So I'm continuing with my lectures and clarifying everything. So whether they want my advice or not, I will talk about it.

Q. So you're not considering mag-TikTok, mag-YouTube, gumawa ng short videos para mas digestible para sa mga kababayan natin? Kasi iba, effective sa kanilang disinformation, napapaniwala sila ng magpapakalat ng fake news.

Well I tried that. I have 3-4 minute videos sa YouTube. Basic lang. That's designed for grade school and high school students. But that was about, I did that during the pandemic kasi parang may magawa.

Maritime dispute. Buo na ang research natin, nagkaroon na ng decision ng tribunal, may award na. So dito sa territorial dispute, ang sabi ng foreign scholars, ang pinakamahina sa territorial dispute ang Pilipinas.

Looking forward to that Justice Carpio. In the meantime, maraming maraming salamat po sa inyong pagtanggap na aming invitation for you to be part of tonight's program. Pero sana Justice, once that research is completed, pwede po natin mapag-usapan dito sa facts first.

Of course. Thank you also for inviting me Christian. Thank you to our viewers for listening.

Okay. Okay. Si Justice Toni Carpio. Retired Supreme Court Senior Associate Justice Toni Carpio, atin po nakasama. So malinaw ba yung discussion?

Mukhang makakat na naman itong interview na ito. Lalabas na naman sa propaganda channels or websites ng mga pro-China. And sisikapin na namang i-debunk.

Tulad ng mga binabanggit ko sa inyo, we have to fight disinformation in a smart way. Kasi magagaling din itong mga to. Talagang sila na yung mali, sila pa yung matapang.

Sila na yung mukhang nagbebenta sa interest ng Pilipinas. Sila pa yung galit? E di wow.

Okay. Bukas ang topic natin. Yung isa pang nakakabanas na nangyari. Yung motorista. Yung isang dating polis daw. Itangkita niya naman sa viral video. Kinasahan ng baril.

Yung siklista na nabangga sa kanyang sasakyan. Yung kotso niya nasa bike lane. Yan ang problema sa atin dito. Andami siga siga. Tapos initially parang protektado pa ng mga kabaro nila.

Kung hindi pa nag-ingay yung mga tao sa social media, mukhang hindi magkakaso yung ating ma-autoridad. Yan ang problema. At di mo napapansin, lately mas maraming anak ng Panginoon ang talagang dumadaan sa bus lane sa EDSA.

Pero yung mga anak ng Panginoon, kitangkita nyo, bumubuntot sa mga bus. I don't know kung lahat ba ng mga government vehicles talagang pwedeng gumamit ng bus lane na yan. Kasi nakikita ko minsan may mga diplomatic plates.

Anyway, government. Sigurado ba kayo na kailangan sa trabaho nyo yung pagdaan nyo yan? Ang lumalabas kasi mas importante ang oras nila kasa oras natin. At marami rin private vehicles na dumadaan, di ko alam kung bakit.

E baka kasi hindi nanghuhuli yung MMDA. Parang okay na sa kanila. Nakaka-boisit po. Anyway, yung mga issue ng kalye, yan ang pag-uusapan natin bukas.

So until Friday morning magpadala po kayo ng videos nyo na hindi lalagpas sa isang minuto. Magpo kayo makonsious ano po ba yung saloobin nyo tungkol niyan sa bagong mapa ng China at ano po ba yung magiging epekto niyan dito sa ating interests dito sa West Philippine Sea.

Ano po ba yung saloobin nyo? And again, you have to abide by basic rules of decency. Dapat meron tayong mga standards na sinusunod bawal magmura, bawal maging racist, bawal yung mga below the belt ng mga hirit. Just focus on the issues.

So ano po ba yung saloobin nyo pagdating sa bagong mapa ng China? And of course, hanga-sanga na rin yan. You can talk about the things that you want to say regarding this bullying by China. Okay? Malinaw po ba?

Mas maganda kasi dito na hindi lang kayo nagpapahayag na inyong damdamin using the comment section, mas maganda mismo kayo mismo nagsasalita dito sa ating channel. Okay ba?

Okay. Sige, sige, sige. Maraming salamat po sa inyo and kita-kita sa amin.

Maraming maraming salamat po sa inyo lahat. Ingat po kayo.

Thank you for watching!