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00:01.8
Bro, what's up bro?
00:04.1
Tata, hindi kong style ka na ngayon ha?
00:08.2
BBM style na ko, medyo Grand Prix.
00:12.4
Ay, hindi, yung BBM style.
00:14.4
Yung BBM style yung parang sa tata nya, yung polo-barong nakaka-
00:18.2
Korekorekorekorekorek.
00:19.3
E, alam na lang mo ha, in fairness ha.
00:21.4
Actually, somebody, some sartorial historian actually needs to talk about yung fashion,
00:26.5
yung ini-indicate ang fashion ng mga presidente natin e.
00:29.5
Kasi I remember Manolo telling me na yung fashion ni BBM was-
00:33.6
Ay, may dad pala, may dad.
00:35.1
Napansin niya, parang he dresses like his father.
00:37.6
And parang, but, and it's very subtle, diba?
00:40.8
Yung hints ni BBM, what he's reproducing from his father are yung mga innocuous things about his father.
00:46.6
It's like, he reproduces his father's voice, he reproduces his father's clothes.
00:52.0
But he's not going to kill like his father, he's not going to raid the central bank like his father.
00:57.7
Alam mo ba, parang, I'm subtly hinting that I'm my father's son, but it's very subtle and very innocuous.
01:04.5
Yeah, he plays on the nostalgia, clearly.
01:06.5
I mean, even the style of his speech and all, when I, once kasama ka sa kami sa CEO for a talk,
01:12.1
oh, he's looking like his dad, literally, and he's speaking like his dad, so clearly he's playing on the nostalgia game.
01:17.2
But he's nothing like it, if you see him off the record, like he's such a, he's tito.
01:23.9
Tsaka hindi siya baduy like his dad pag kinusap, yung si Marcos kasi, kahit pag gini-interview, or rhetorical magsulita,
01:33.7
well, the Philippines is a country with a lot of, ganoon magsulit tayo si Marcos even during an interview.
01:39.7
But if you interview the son, he talks like a normal person, right?
01:43.2
He's not pompous, he's not like a pompous lawyer like his father.
01:48.4
And so I like his speaking style a lot more than his father's speaking style.
01:52.6
And very subtle nga yung mga sinisignal, diba?
01:56.2
Papatutog niya, Pilipinas kong mahal.
01:58.4
Pero hindi niya papatutog, theme of bagong lipunan, diba?
02:01.6
Asaktong nostalgia lang, no?
02:05.2
Yeah, pero before we go to BBM, and then we talk about economy and all,
02:10.4
kamusta yung fashion naman ni Sarah Duterte sa'yo?
02:13.2
May mga nagkakomment dito na, anong basa mo kay Sarah?
02:16.8
Kasi galit na galit siya, pero ang happy ng colors niya.
02:19.9
Parating white, bright color, tapos nakakuchela po siya last year, with shades, ganoon.
02:26.1
Ay, yung hangin, diba yung barang nag-cropped?
02:29.1
Yung nag-cropped, ito ba yung nag-cropped?
02:30.1
Yung kuchela, yung kuchela.
02:32.1
What's going on there?
02:34.1
Hindi ako fashion historian, pero meron ba d'yan, meron ba d'yan?
02:37.7
Mayroon ba ang interested mag-comment sa evolving fashion ng mga basalete natin?
02:43.9
Ano'y sabi? Ano'y sabi?
02:45.4
White na ito diba? Off the record.
02:47.4
May sensation, baka mapamak tayo.
02:50.4
Ano'y sabi ng mga kaibigan natin?
02:52.4
Mamaya, isend ko yung screenshot dito.
02:54.4
O bahala kayo, mag-comment kayo dito.
02:56.4
Wait lang, bro, wait lang.
02:58.4
Mag-comment kayo ng konti kasi hindi naman ako fashion, hindi naman kami sartorial experts si Richard e.
03:05.4
Okay, okay. Let's go back to this.
03:07.4
Before we go back to BBM and Philippine Economy,
03:10.4
anong tingin mo dun sa response ni Sarah dun sa mga confidential phone?
03:15.7
Doesn't that prove that she's still really a Duterte at the end of the day?
03:19.7
Because I keep on hearing, no, this daughter is this and that, gonna be different from the dad.
03:23.7
I kinda see that, but I don't.
03:25.7
Like, I kinda see that, but I don't e.
03:28.7
Yung instinct, yung response, the same e.
03:32.7
Pag in-securitize mo ako, ten times ko ibalik sayo.
03:35.7
Like, it's minus the digong fluidity.
03:39.7
Minus the digong humor. Minus the digong...
03:41.7
Humor nga, yun nga e.
03:44.0
Kaya nga sa tingin ko, mas mabilis magsak ang rating kaysa sa tatay e, diba?
03:49.0
Kasi yung tatay, mapipikon, mga aasar,
03:51.0
pero at least patatawanin ka.
03:54.0
And then, of course, it must be said na yung numbers are really gendered, diba?
03:59.0
One of the reasons why mas mabilis mo magsak si Sarah kaysa sa tatay niya,
04:02.0
is because it is really more different.
04:05.0
Obviously, I'm not sympathetic to Sarah,
04:07.0
pero I'm sympathetic to female politicians.
04:10.3
I'm sympathetic to female politicians in the Philippines as a whole
04:14.3
because it really is harder for them.
04:17.3
Ito, BS to ah, na parang,
04:19.3
ah, wala tayong problem with female politicians
04:21.3
because we've elected Arroyo, we've elected Aquino.
04:25.3
They want, despite being women,
04:28.3
meron talaga, if you look at the numbers,
04:30.3
it is really harder to become president of the Philippines kung babae ka.
04:34.3
So, tinatamaan si Sarah partially because,
04:36.6
you know, she can't,
04:37.6
she doesn't have the capacity to engage in the macho stick that her father did
04:41.6
because people still ultimately read her as female.
04:44.6
And that's really sad.
04:45.6
But at the same time, you know, the bigger problem here
04:48.6
is that Sarah is like, you know,
04:51.6
Sarah is pikon, like her father.
04:53.6
Minus the humor, minus...
04:55.6
I mean, but let's not forget, what?
04:57.6
90% of the kudetas in the past 30 years or so
04:59.6
were against Corazon Aquino and Arroyo?
05:03.9
Gendered pa rin ang politics sa atin, bro.
05:05.9
So, I mean, it cannot get more brutally, you know,
05:08.9
in your face than that.
05:09.9
I mean, just, I think there's a strong correlation,
05:11.9
often to our friends out there who have been, you know,
05:14.9
launching all these coups, including mga kaibigan natin,
05:20.9
Yung isa, mayor na ngayon, sikat na.
05:22.9
Okay, mamaya natin pag-usapan.
05:23.9
Now, park muna natin mga Dutertes
05:26.9
because vice president lang naman siya.
05:28.9
Let's now go to the national presidential level, bro.
05:32.2
Now, before talking about the Philippine economy,
05:34.2
because clearly one big problem for BBM,
05:36.2
and as I argued in a recent piece,
05:38.2
and I've been arguing,
05:39.2
the Philippines doesn't have only
05:40.2
the rice, price, food inflation problem.
05:42.2
It's going to face more problems
05:44.2
as we discuss in artificial intelligence,
05:46.2
effect on BPO industry.
05:47.2
Some studies say up to 70% of jobs
05:49.2
could be affected before the end of the decade.
05:51.2
And then we also have this problem of, you know,
05:54.2
not much FDIs coming in.
05:56.2
It's going to Vietnam, it's going to Thailand, etc.
05:58.2
So, we have some serious problem there.
06:00.5
I'm still not hearing this magic word
06:02.5
or term, industrial policy.
06:04.5
It doesn't seem to come up.
06:06.5
Ang dami nakikriticize kay BBM,
06:08.5
Maharlika Fund, etc.
06:10.5
It's all the usual attack
06:12.5
from the perspective of good governance.
06:14.5
But this was always my frustration
06:16.5
with liberal opposition in the Philippines.
06:17.5
They don't talk about, you know,
06:19.5
industrial policy, trade policy.
06:21.5
And you are right now in the United States,
06:23.5
the heartland of global capitalism.
06:27.5
And yet, not long ago,
06:29.8
President Biden and re-electionist soon,
06:33.8
Donald Trump, former president,
06:37.8
one of them just joined, right?
06:39.8
The autoworkers strike
06:41.8
in the heartland of American,
06:43.8
you know, industry.
06:45.8
And then you had Trump come in and say,
06:47.8
no, no, I'm even more real than Biden
06:49.8
in protecting you against exploitative capitalism
06:53.8
Like, this is happening in the United States.
06:55.8
Both Biden and Trump are pro-labor unions,
07:00.1
I mean, this is crazy, bro.
07:04.1
And both of them are America first
07:06.1
in terms of their manufacturing strategy, etc.
07:08.1
So, can we first talk about the United States
07:10.1
and then talk about the Philippines
07:12.1
because we always have copycats in the U.S.
07:14.1
Because the U.S. that Biden and Trump
07:16.1
are really targeting
07:18.1
is the white working class
07:20.1
that for most of the era of
07:22.1
what we call high neoliberalism,
07:26.4
and a lot of the jobs
07:28.4
went to places like China and Mexico
07:30.4
in production jobs.
07:32.4
And so that population got alienated
07:34.4
and therefore that population
07:36.4
started to vote for populists like Trump.
07:38.4
Now, for Trump, the calculus is
07:40.4
I want to maintain that populist base.
07:44.4
I want to take some of that populist base
07:46.4
so that I can reconstitute the alliance
07:48.4
of labor and democrats.
07:50.4
Because that was a long-standing alliance
07:56.7
and maybe until the 80s,
07:58.7
there was a strong alliance
08:00.7
between the Democrats
08:02.7
and the white working class.
08:04.7
Until Nixon and Reagan
08:06.7
played into the culture wars
08:08.7
to divide the country.
08:10.7
Yeah, before the culture wars.
08:12.7
So, Biden and Trump agreed
08:14.7
that if they wanted to get it back
08:16.7
from the Republicans, particularly
08:18.7
the non-college educated white working class
08:20.7
that he needs to talk about industrial policy,
08:23.0
and so now they've met
08:25.0
and now there's really
08:27.0
a pushback against the idea
08:29.0
that you can just let your country globalize
08:31.0
and that you don't need to do anything
08:33.0
to promote certain industries.
08:35.0
So, it's popular in the US.
08:37.0
So, the time is right, bro.
08:39.0
Growing up, when we were in college,
08:41.0
when we were in college, when we were in high school,
08:43.0
nobody really talked about industrial policy.
08:45.0
Even during our early academic years,
08:47.0
the idea of industrial policy was a bit badu.
08:49.0
If you talked about industrial policy,
08:51.3
you were like a baduy Marxist
08:53.3
from the 60s, right?
08:57.3
now they're talking about it.
08:59.3
So, there's an idea, right?
09:01.3
There's a saying, the strike while the iron is hot.
09:03.3
The iron is hot for industrial policy right now.
09:05.3
I want to ask you a question
09:07.3
about how your views have evolved
09:09.3
with respect to industrial policy.
09:11.3
Because, I admit,
09:13.3
when I was younger, I didn't think that much
09:15.3
because it's not top of mind for people.
09:17.3
No, I mean, I was always a geek
09:19.6
for made in this country
09:21.6
or made in that country.
09:23.6
I remember when I was 9-10 years old,
09:25.6
I was talking about JVC, where did JVC come from.
09:27.6
I was obsessed about how Korea developed over the years.
09:29.6
Because I did Taekwondo, right?
09:31.6
So, I had a lot of interaction with Koreans.
09:33.6
And I would always hear about how their parents were so poor
09:35.6
and how suddenly Korea, within a generation,
09:37.6
became a wealthy country.
09:39.6
And I was like, wow, that's amazing.
09:41.6
So, I was very curious about how Korea
09:43.6
went from one of the poorest countries in the world, right?
09:45.6
Kalevali in Ghana, right?
09:47.9
In the 50s and 60s.
09:49.9
Even poorer than the Philippines at some point.
09:51.9
And then now, one of the richest countries on Earth.
09:53.9
One of the most developed.
09:55.9
So, I realized early on in life,
09:57.9
I realized that countries that are
09:59.9
strong in manufacturing
10:01.9
have a good chance of moving up the ladder.
10:03.9
So, what I spent a lot of my undergraduate
10:05.9
and beyond to study was
10:07.9
the trade and industrial policy strategy
10:09.9
of these so-called
10:11.9
newly industrialized nations, right?
10:13.9
Taiwan, a country I spent some time with
10:18.2
But also, in other places in the world,
10:20.2
for instance, Brazil, right?
10:22.2
Brazil has a very large auto manufacturing
10:24.2
and also a bear, their aircraft.
10:26.2
Actually, the crash,
10:30.2
in Russia, right?
10:34.2
He was actually riding a Brazilian aircraft.
10:36.2
But, I mean, I'm sure it doesn't have to do
10:38.2
with the safety of Brazil.
10:40.2
But, you know what I'm saying?
10:42.2
Even in Russia, they use Brazilian
10:44.5
airplanes, et cetera.
10:46.5
Turkey is another interesting case.
10:48.5
Thailand was one of the countries that really
10:50.5
amazed me for a long time.
10:52.5
I think they're number six or seven in the world
10:54.5
in terms of total auto manufacturing industry.
10:56.5
And I realized, I love cars, right?
10:58.5
Not that I have cars, but I love cars.
11:00.5
So, I got to know a lot of cars in the Philippines.
11:02.5
The Japanese are from Thailand, now from Indonesia.
11:04.5
So, from a very young age until now,
11:06.5
I've been obsessed about manufacturing.
11:08.5
That's why you see VinFast, right?
11:10.5
I've been very excited about this.
11:12.8
Boyish obsession with manufacturing.
11:14.8
So, I really try to understand
11:16.8
why the Philippines
11:18.8
could not replicate what a lot of our neighbors
11:20.8
were able to replicate.
11:22.8
Was there something peculiar about us?
11:26.8
And that's why we had our first episode
11:28.8
where we discussed how it was a conspiracy
11:30.8
of initial advantages
11:32.8
and then complacency
11:34.8
and then oligarchic rapture
11:36.8
that prevented us from really
11:38.8
fulfilling our full potential
11:41.1
in the first wave of global industrialization.
11:45.1
as now we move into the fourth industrial revolution
11:47.1
or I would say second wave of global industrialization,
11:49.1
China and the Philippines
11:51.1
can ride on this because
11:53.1
you ask someone 50, 60 years ago
11:55.1
and you would say like South Korea
11:57.1
and Thailand and these countries will be industrialized
11:59.1
by this time, are you kidding me, right?
12:01.1
They would say it's unbelievable.
12:03.1
They would rather say Argentina or Turkey, right?
12:05.1
They would rather say Czech Republic, right?
12:07.1
Or they would rather say Philippines
12:09.4
for that matter, right?
12:11.4
So, in the same vein, what should prevent the Philippines
12:13.4
pulling off the kind of unexpected magic
12:15.4
that these countries were able to pull off
12:19.4
Or look at India, for instance, right now.
12:21.4
I mean, it has a lot of problems
12:23.4
but a lot of manufacturing is also moving to India.
12:25.4
A huge chunk of our Samsungs today
12:27.4
are going to be made in India.
12:29.4
More and more Apple, 8% are going to be made in India.
12:31.4
iPhone 15s, a lot of them are going to be made in India.
12:33.4
These things were unthinkable 5, 10, 15 years ago.
12:35.4
Everyone's saying India is just PPO industry.
12:37.7
So, in short, bro, if you look at it,
12:39.7
I don't think it's in the blood.
12:41.7
It's not in the genes.
12:43.7
If you're Korean, you're meant to make LG and Hyundai.
12:45.7
It doesn't work that way.
12:47.7
It's something that's constructed through policy
12:49.7
and state-backed kind of industrialization.
12:53.7
I want to refer people to this book
12:55.7
because this is what it's about.
12:57.7
It's called Demanding Devaluation
12:59.7
Exchange Rate Politics in the Developing World
13:01.7
by David A. Steinberg.
13:03.7
And Steinberg's argument is
13:06.0
devaluing your currency
13:08.0
if you're a developing country is a no-brainer.
13:10.0
You should have a cheap currency
13:12.0
if you're a developing country
13:14.0
because it boosts your export
13:16.0
and it helps with industrialization.
13:18.0
So, Steinberg's question is,
13:20.0
effectively, why are there developing countries
13:22.0
that are so stupid
13:24.0
as to want to revalue their currency
13:26.0
every single time?
13:28.0
And his answer is maybe applicable
13:30.0
to the Philippines.
13:32.0
Essentially, he's looking at the concentration of capital.
13:36.3
If the concentration of capital is higher
13:38.3
in importers than in exporters
13:40.3
or if that's the set-up,
13:42.3
then a country will not demand devaluation.
13:46.3
that's probably the case in the Philippines
13:48.3
because in the 1950s,
13:50.3
we really supported a lot of importers
13:52.3
and we pegged our industrialization
13:54.3
on that kind of ISI.
13:56.3
But I think Steinberg is inadequate
14:00.3
we really need to think
14:02.6
about our psychological obsession
14:04.6
with a strong currency
14:06.6
that prevents us from doing it.
14:08.6
So, I would like to refer again, people,
14:10.6
to Professor Fabella's work.
14:12.6
When the peso went all-time low
14:16.6
October last year,
14:18.6
the peso went all-time low.
14:22.6
well, I'm paraphrasing and I'm putting words in his mouth,
14:24.6
but more or less,
14:26.6
we ate the inflation
14:28.6
so damage is done.
14:30.9
We raised that level
14:32.9
so that when investors come,
14:34.9
they know that we'll keep it low
14:36.9
because devaluation only works
14:38.9
if you signal to the market
14:40.9
that this peso will be cheap for a very long time
14:42.9
so you can invest in exports.
14:44.9
If you signal to the market
14:46.9
that I'll raise it again,
14:48.9
the exporters will just go out
14:50.9
because it's useless.
14:54.9
in September-October of last year,
14:56.9
this is a good opportunity for us
14:59.2
because we ate the inflation,
15:01.2
the peso went down,
15:03.2
we should stick to it.
15:05.2
But he said, if history is any indicator,
15:07.2
we will revalue and nothing will happen.
15:09.2
And true enough, late October, early November,
15:11.2
Secretary Diokno said,
15:13.2
we will defend the value of the peso.
15:15.2
So, Fabella is right again.
15:19.2
I was giving a lecture
15:21.2
just this weekend.
15:23.2
I said, a lot of people think
15:25.2
that in order to solve the problem
15:27.5
you need to kill the oligarchs.
15:29.5
That's the only way to solve it
15:31.5
because oligarchs ruin everything.
15:33.5
There are certain things you can do
15:35.5
short of killing all the oligarchs
15:37.5
because I don't think you can.
15:39.5
Short-term thing that you can do
15:41.5
is actually just devalue
15:43.5
the freaking peso.
15:47.5
Going back to the example I mentioned,
15:49.5
South Korea did not kill its oligarchs,
15:51.5
it bullied its oligarchs to become world leaders.
15:55.8
Channel their energy in the right direction, right?
15:57.8
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:59.8
And one way to channel the energy of your oligarchs
16:01.8
in the right direction is to tell them,
16:03.8
if you invest in exports, we will support you.
16:07.8
We will support you if you invest in exports.
16:09.8
Bro, because what I understand here
16:11.8
in the Philippines,
16:13.8
the reason why the value of pesos is
16:17.8
but also it's very politically sensitive
16:21.8
a lot of our oligarchs and businesses
16:24.1
are denominated debt.
16:26.1
So if the Philippines goes up,
16:28.1
their real debt goes up.
16:30.1
And then the OFW aspect.
16:32.1
The OFWs are always happy
16:34.1
if the value of dollar is higher.
16:36.1
So there's a countervailing
16:38.1
kind of situation there.
16:42.1
it's a question of balance of forces also.
16:44.1
It's a question of lobbying.
16:46.1
But for me, more fundamentally,
16:48.1
the problem is that
16:50.1
we don't have the vocabulary of industrial policy.
16:52.4
Last year, I think it was...
16:56.4
You're right. Fabelio kind of discussed it
16:58.4
and then Medalia kind of hinted at it.
17:00.4
But he didn't really
17:02.4
spell it out in ways that
17:04.4
you would expect it in a country like France,
17:06.4
in a country like even Japan, etc.
17:08.4
In other countries,
17:10.4
talking about industrial policy is normal
17:12.4
for many years now.
17:14.4
Since Trump, essentially.
17:16.4
So if America can talk
17:18.4
about industrial policy so openly,
17:22.7
And for some reason, even Medalia was tiptoeing around that.
17:24.7
He should have explained it all the way.
17:26.7
Why is it good for us
17:28.7
to be a manufacturing-oriented country?
17:32.7
They didn't go down that road.
17:34.7
They just said, yeah, maybe cheaper exports,
17:36.7
it's better for us, blah, blah, blah.
17:38.7
And then that's it. And it stopped.
17:40.7
One reason is because
17:44.7
Because one element of industrial policy,
17:46.7
let's face it, is picking winners.
17:51.0
this industry is good,
17:53.0
we will pour resources into this industry.
17:55.0
You know how Filipinos think.
17:57.0
When they hear that the government will support something,
17:59.0
they immediately think of corruption.
18:01.0
The Filipino will say,
18:05.0
stop that, because it's corrupt.
18:07.0
You cannot engender corruption in any way
18:09.0
because the Philippines is just too corrupt
18:11.0
for industrial policy.
18:13.0
And I think we should accept,
18:15.0
and this is maybe a controversial statement,
18:17.3
that there will be corruption.
18:19.3
We will really eat a little bit of corruption
18:21.3
for industrial policy to happen.
18:23.3
The Japanese ate some corruption,
18:25.3
the Koreans ate some corruption,
18:27.3
and we will have bad investments.
18:29.3
We will have bad investments.
18:31.3
Korea still has corruption.
18:35.3
And also, there are investments
18:37.3
that will be scrapped.
18:39.3
The government choosing winners,
18:41.3
saying, I will encourage this sector,
18:43.3
it will make mistakes.
19:15.3
it will be scandalous if we engage in industrial policy.
19:17.3
But that doesn't mean
19:19.3
that the entire concept is bankrupt.
19:21.3
Because for every failure,
19:23.3
you might have one great success,
19:25.3
and you might develop your own,
19:27.3
your Filipino Samsung.
19:29.3
You might develop your Filipino Sony,
19:31.3
and it makes it worth it.
19:33.3
That's my thinking.
19:35.3
Can the Marlica Fund be used to support certain industries?
19:39.3
why do we push the logic here?
19:41.3
Maybe the Marlica Fund can...
19:43.3
Looks like they were willing to take a lot of punches
19:45.3
for the Marlica Sovereign Wealth Fund.
19:47.3
They were willing to take punches for industrial policies
19:49.3
supporting certain industries.
19:51.3
I want to ask you this.
19:53.3
Of course, both of us
19:59.3
I won't say biases, but we have an instinctive...
20:05.3
Not much suspicion, but
20:07.3
ambivalence, I'll put it,
20:09.3
towards the big business people in the Philippines.
20:13.3
I've met a lot of them.
20:15.3
Some of them are really nice people in person.
20:17.3
But at the end of the day,
20:19.3
I know a lot of them got rich, if not all of them,
20:21.3
through not necessarily competitive practices.
20:27.3
As one friend of mine said,
20:29.3
who was kind of involved in Hollywood stuff
20:31.3
and was hoping to do something in the Philippines,
20:33.3
it's good for Korea.
20:35.3
Their oligarchs are the next generation.
20:37.3
They support the next generation.
20:39.3
They're used to easy money.
20:43.3
kind of industries, easy profit.
20:45.3
It looks like the appetite
20:47.3
for really risky things
20:49.3
like automobile manufacturing, etc.
20:51.3
seems to be lower. Although, I would argue that
20:53.3
EV industry is much easier
20:55.3
because you don't need to develop
20:57.3
an engine like before.
20:59.3
But I want to ask you, bro.
21:01.3
Having said that,
21:03.3
you and I inherently have ambivalence.
21:05.3
Not only because of our scholarly training,
21:07.3
but also because of our progressive orientation.
21:09.3
Let's just be honest about this.
21:11.3
But do you think we could have some sort of
21:13.3
good Machiavelli,
21:15.3
can we have good oligarchs in the Philippines?
21:17.3
Do we have good oligarchs?
21:19.3
I mean, we know Aboitizes are close to the president.
21:21.3
Ayalas are also kind of
21:23.3
there in the mix in ways that they were not
21:25.3
during Digong's time. Do you think these people
21:27.3
could be vectors of
21:29.3
industry? They could be our next shables?
21:33.3
I mean, this is probably where
21:35.3
most of us will disagree with our friend Joseph Scalise.
21:37.3
Because Joseph Scalise
21:39.3
hates the fact that the left
21:41.3
collaborates with a national industrial
21:43.3
class. And he thinks that's the sin
21:47.3
I kind of agree that the left
21:49.3
made the sin of working with
21:51.3
a national industrial class.
21:53.3
But my argument there is that they work
21:55.3
with the wrong national industrial class.
21:57.3
A kind of import-dependent
21:59.3
national industrial class.
22:01.3
Now, if the left had worked with a productive
22:05.3
export-promoting national
22:07.3
class, then I think that
22:09.3
left-wing politics would have been different in the Philippines.
22:11.3
That's the kind of
22:13.3
difference I have with Joseph.
22:15.3
And if you want to know what
22:17.3
Joseph says, I'll just refer you
22:19.3
to Richard's podcast with Joseph
22:21.3
where he comprehensively
22:23.3
brings down his argument.
22:25.3
Three and a half.
22:27.3
Three and a half.
22:29.3
You guys had a friendly conversation
22:31.3
and you did point out that you had
22:33.3
that difference with him then.
22:37.3
almost got in a long debate about
22:39.3
whether communism had a rot at the
22:41.3
center of the apple. And for me,
22:43.3
it was rotten from the very beginning.
22:45.3
He's the more Trotsky type of dino style.
22:47.3
I don't buy that. I'm more like
22:49.3
in the Stephen Kotkin
22:51.3
school of thought when it comes to these things.
22:53.3
But no, I love that conversation.
22:55.3
Honestly, bro, do you think
22:57.3
historically we have had or do we
22:59.3
have some of these
23:01.3
big conglomerates?
23:03.3
How can we go from
23:05.3
conglomerates to chables or
23:09.3
national champions?
23:11.3
Do we have it among us? Do we have those kind of people
23:13.3
with the right state policy
23:15.3
and the state bureaucracy? Do we have
23:17.3
even the bureaucrats to do that?
23:19.3
You have made the whole business Scottish
23:21.3
industry out of bashing some of our
23:23.3
wrong technocrats.
23:27.3
the conversation already here, but I felt
23:29.3
we have reached a point that we have to already discuss
23:31.3
the next step. We have what it takes.
23:33.3
What are you reading here?
23:35.3
Because my classic
23:37.3
reading in terms of the development
23:39.3
of bureaucrats for an industrial
23:41.3
state is the work of Chalmers
23:45.3
Chalmers Johnson,
23:47.3
I recommend the book,
23:49.3
about MITI, which is
23:51.3
the Ministry of Trade and Industry of Japan.
23:53.3
He talks about the close relationship
23:57.3
Tokyo University Law.
23:59.3
Tokyo University Law,
24:01.3
the high point of industrial
24:03.3
policy in MITI, the top graduates
24:05.3
of Tokyo University Law will graduate
24:09.3
There was this natural
24:13.3
of the educational institution
24:17.3
important parts of government.
24:19.3
We don't have that yet, right? Because
24:21.3
if you are a top graduate of UP Ateneo
24:23.3
or UST, you go to
24:25.3
the private world, right?
24:27.3
But at that time, at the height of MITI,
24:29.3
the most prestigious job was MITI.
24:33.3
the MITI job was a prestigious job
24:35.3
is because after you
24:37.3
retire from MITI,
24:39.3
you are almost guaranteed to sit on
24:41.3
the board of a big
24:45.3
So there's a little
24:49.3
It's not that rich
24:51.3
during your working years, but
24:53.3
you retire at 65, you will immediately
24:55.3
sit on the board of Toyota.
24:57.3
You will be seen.
24:59.3
So there's that ecology.
25:01.3
It's like three institutions
25:03.3
feeding to each other. You had Tokyo Law,
25:07.3
and from MITI, you had
25:11.3
They're both closely interlinked with each other.
25:13.3
Now again, in the eyes of Filipinos,
25:15.3
that looks like corruption.
25:21.3
of the Japanese, that's actually
25:25.3
That's coordination for national
25:29.3
Again, we need to be willing to play in
25:31.3
these murky waters wherein
25:35.3
uncomfortable at certain points.
25:37.3
But what makes it feel
25:41.3
comfortable is ultimately if we have
25:43.3
in mind that the reason why we are doing this
25:45.3
is not because of conflict of interest,
25:47.3
but because we have the common interest
25:49.3
of promoting our country.
25:51.3
If you look at it from that broad
25:53.3
perspective, the end conflict of interest
25:55.3
because the ultimate interest of the
25:57.3
Zaibatsu, of the government,
25:59.3
of Tokyo Law, is promoting Japan.
26:03.3
as they called it in the 80s.
26:05.3
Obviously, of course, since the
26:07.3
classic work on MITI, there are a lot of
26:09.3
other countercriticisms,
26:11.3
more institutional approach, etc.
26:15.3
absolutely right that you need
26:17.3
a network of best and
26:19.3
brightest nurturing system
26:21.3
and then incubate that
26:23.3
and then make the most out of that. That's what we don't
26:25.3
have in the Philippines. But that also brings me back to our
26:27.3
argument before that we have a
26:29.3
very libertarian American culture that
26:31.3
demonizes the state, the government.
26:33.3
The government, when people look negatively
26:35.3
at the public service in the Philippines
26:37.3
compared to Confucian states,
26:39.3
whether it's China. I mean, look at China today,
26:41.3
bro. They are considered still
26:45.3
nation of innovation for public policy.
26:47.3
I'm not a fan of Xi Jinping.
26:49.3
I'm not a fan of their
26:51.3
authoritarian system. But when it comes to
26:53.3
civil service in China, I still buy
26:55.3
the argument. Eric Chubayan or whatever,
26:57.3
their TED Talk, they indeed have
26:59.3
one of the most high-level civil service
27:01.3
guys. If you give them an assignment,
27:03.3
they will do it better than almost anyone
27:05.3
out there. And we really don't have that.
27:07.3
The civil service
27:09.3
that is world-class, innovative.
27:13.3
want to even use the word patriotic because that's already
27:15.3
sentimentality. That's already given.
27:17.3
But the super competent bureaucracy,
27:19.3
I'm just not sure, bro.
27:21.3
From my lawyer friends and contacts, I heard
27:23.3
that the competition commission during the time
27:25.3
of Balisacan was really good.
27:27.3
I mean, they were impressed.
27:29.3
What's lacking is that they are good
27:31.3
economists but they don't know the law
27:33.3
very well. So, they are being played
27:35.3
by the companies because they are
27:37.3
hitting cases right and left.
27:39.3
That's oligopolistic.
27:41.3
Actually, I interviewed Balisacan
27:43.3
just as he was about to go into NEDA
27:45.3
from competition commission. They are fantastic
27:47.3
people. They are super smart, patriotic,
27:49.3
best and brightest economists people.
27:51.3
That's why I said, please train them in law
27:53.3
because they will be played by oligarchs
27:57.3
because there are a lot of holes in our law.
28:01.3
that could be a role
28:03.3
model. What we had in competition
28:05.3
commission especially during Balisacan times
28:07.3
as a kind of a strong regulatory bureaucracy,
28:09.3
we can also opt for industrial policy.
28:11.3
That's all. I'm just excited.
28:13.3
I just don't know if the
28:15.3
UP School of Economics is creating
28:17.3
that kind of people.
28:19.3
Or UP School of Law
28:23.3
I don't think so at all. I mean, the UP School of Law
28:25.3
is incomparable to Tokyo Law School.
28:27.3
Tokyo Law School, ABE among others,
28:29.3
all of them come from that background.
28:31.3
It's more like Oxford.
28:33.3
I mean, look at the British Prime Minister.
28:35.3
They're practically all Oxford or not graduate
28:37.3
from any other school.
28:39.3
Like there's no Cambridge,
28:41.3
there's none. It's all Oxford.
28:43.3
They're kind of like the Oxford men of
28:49.3
In UP, our training is
28:57.3
Our education system is really wrong
29:03.3
the early days of
29:07.3
And this is what I talk about in my book.
29:09.3
It's not like the early days of UP.
29:11.3
Because you will build the freaking
29:15.3
That was the goal of UP.
29:17.3
Nation building. Best and the brightest.
29:19.3
Come to UP, regardless of your class,
29:21.3
regardless of where you are from the Philippines,
29:23.3
come here. When you graduate here,
29:25.3
you will build our country.
29:27.3
That's how it was imagined.
29:29.3
And I think we can still go back to that.
29:31.3
A lot of it, Richard,
29:35.3
Our take is cynical.
29:37.3
Our take on the government is cynical.
29:39.3
Our take on policy is cynical.
29:41.3
Libertarian legacy.
29:43.3
I think we are so negatively influenced.
29:45.3
Our experience with the Spanish was not the best.
29:47.3
They never gave a good idea of bureaucracy.
29:49.3
I think we have an instinctive bias
29:51.3
against state institutions.
29:53.3
We never appreciate it.
29:57.3
it's not just people, even academics.
29:59.3
There's a quote from
30:01.3
two people I really admire,
30:03.3
Paul Hodgecroft and Emmanuel DeJos.
30:05.3
They say, it quotes,
30:07.3
that the power of the particularistic demands
30:09.3
of the oligarchy ruins
30:11.3
sound policy agenda at the national level.
30:13.3
So what are they saying there?
30:15.3
Policy doesn't matter.
30:17.3
That's so cynical.
30:19.3
That's so cynical.
30:21.3
As long as you have an oligarchy,
30:25.3
worthwhile thinking about
30:27.3
sound policy because it gets ruined
30:29.3
by the oligarchy anyway.
30:31.3
That's what they mean, but that's the impression
30:33.3
it gives you, right?
30:35.3
No, I actually think that
30:37.3
is what they mean. That is effectively
30:39.3
what they mean, right? Maybe not DeJos.
30:43.3
on from that, but Hodgecroft,
30:45.3
I think that's what he means, right?
30:47.3
Ultimately, if you don't solve the oligarchy problem,
30:49.3
everything else is
30:53.3
But I do think that, you're right earlier,
30:55.3
that you can actually divert the oligarchy
30:57.3
into doing things that are more
30:59.3
productive. I'll give you another quote.
31:01.3
Alfred McCoy, he believes
31:03.3
that the Philippines' recurring crisis
31:07.3
diffusion of political power
31:09.3
and rent-seeking.
31:11.3
He says that leads to corruption and
31:13.3
concentration of wealth. So again, all of our
31:15.3
crises are just a function of the fact that we're an oligarchy.
31:19.3
crises are actually a product of
31:21.3
global economic contractions or bad
31:23.3
policy. It's all about
31:25.3
the rent-seeking and the political power.
31:27.3
I see what you're doing there.
31:29.3
It's so cynical, man.
31:31.3
So if that's the case,
31:33.3
our conclusion is,
31:35.3
as long as we don't kill all the oligarchs,
31:37.3
we're doomed to fail.
31:39.3
We're kind of hopeless.
31:43.3
So what you're arguing,
31:45.3
if I can put it in almost journalistic
31:47.3
terms, is what you're saying is Philippine studies
31:49.3
essentially became
31:51.3
Philippine state bashing studies
31:53.3
or Philippine is hopeless because of
31:55.3
its oligarch studies.
31:59.3
There's a book, right?
32:01.3
Philippines, a changeless land.
32:03.3
That's my friend.
32:05.3
I told him. I don't believe him.
32:07.3
He's in Freedom House now.
32:11.3
But you're right.
32:13.3
That's very Orientalist.
32:15.3
I don't want to go into that language
32:17.3
because I like these people.
32:19.3
They're great people.
32:21.3
Yeah, you're right.
32:23.3
I wouldn't go that far.
32:33.3
It hurts, brother Pablo.
32:35.3
I call Paul Pablo, right?
32:37.3
It hurts, brother Pablo.
32:39.3
He knows Bisayan.
32:43.3
I know Paul will hear.
32:45.3
There's a good chance that Paul hears this.
32:47.3
I'm just going to pamper him.
32:49.3
Brother Pablo, it hurts.
32:55.3
I love the guy, by the way.
32:57.3
Speaking of him, I think we should interview him
32:59.3
once and talk to him.
33:01.3
So you see where this discussion of ours
33:03.3
is going. It started more like
33:05.3
we have a problem.
33:07.3
What's the history? What's the root of this problem?
33:09.3
And now, suddenly,
33:11.3
let's talk about it.
33:13.3
Can we have a second chance at industrial policy?
33:17.3
a president, which is not necessarily
33:19.3
your, I don't know,
33:21.3
your technocratic
33:23.3
excellence, but he might bring
33:25.3
in some technocrats like Mar Rojas in.
33:27.3
He already has smart people like Guibo there.
33:29.3
There are smart people like you
33:31.3
and I around who are not haters.
33:33.3
We're always here to help
33:35.3
the country, even if we have to.
33:39.3
I think there's...
33:41.3
How I approach industrial
33:43.3
policy, it's like food diplomacy.
33:45.3
I feel like this is the chance finally for
33:47.3
Filipino food to get the respect
33:49.3
it deserves. Finally, this is
33:51.3
also our chance to get... I have
33:53.3
that feeling, bro. Finally, we're fighting for
33:55.3
West Philippine Siblo.
33:57.3
I feel we're in a special moment.
33:59.3
I know it's presentist.
34:01.3
You can say, of course, Richard, you'll say that because this is
34:03.3
your era. Because of course, Richard
34:05.3
would believe that his era is the era.
34:07.3
But no, I feel like that's really true.
34:09.3
Something really substantial is happening
34:11.3
in the Philippines. I think this is our second chance for something
34:13.3
special. That's why we're doing this podcast.
34:15.3
You think I would have bothered to do this podcast?
34:17.3
I don't know. I feel like the Philippines
34:19.3
is a hopeless case. No.
34:21.3
I'm doing this because I know there's an open Philippines.
34:23.3
We have a chance. We have an opening, bro.
34:25.3
I just want to remind those
34:27.3
who didn't listen to the previous episode.
34:29.3
There is evidence that
34:31.3
sometimes you can actually grow despite
34:33.3
corruption. So, again,
34:35.3
let's not be cynical here.
34:37.3
There are countries
34:39.3
that you get rich
34:41.3
before you fix corruption.
34:43.3
To fix corruption, you need to be rich.
34:45.3
You need to pay your bureaucrats well.
34:47.3
You need to have a strong police force.
34:49.3
That costs money.
34:51.3
There is an argument that
34:53.3
if there's no poor, there's no corrupt.
34:55.3
As opposed to if there's no corrupt, there's no poor.
34:57.3
If there's no poor, there's no corrupt.
34:59.3
If we get rich, we can reduce corruption.
35:01.3
It's not hopeless.
35:03.3
We can do something.
35:05.3
The reason why we can do something is because
35:07.3
Filipinos are freaking creative, man.
35:09.3
They're so creative.
35:11.3
When we talk about
35:13.3
tradables, tradables are about
35:15.3
what we can contribute to the world.
35:17.3
Tradables, essentially manufacturing tradables,
35:19.3
they're products of human ingenuity
35:21.3
and human creativity.
35:27.3
Filipinos are lacking there.
35:29.3
The government is lacking
35:31.3
in supporting Filipino ingenuity
35:35.3
Essential raw talent.
35:37.3
We're not lacking there.
35:39.3
I agree with you. I'm hopeful.
35:41.3
But the thing is,
35:43.3
the puzzle is this.
35:45.3
If our people are so fantastic,
35:47.3
why our government were also out of us?
35:49.3
It's not like aliens are ruling the Philippines or Singaporeans.
35:51.3
It's still Filipinos.
35:53.3
My reading is because
35:55.3
we have an inherent libertarian, anti-statist
35:59.3
which we inherited from Americans largely.
36:01.3
I think that has always
36:03.3
prevented us from doing the right thing.
36:05.3
There's a lot of problems with the state.
36:07.3
There's a lot of corruption.
36:09.3
But we keep on throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
36:11.3
The baby is a strong bureaucracy
36:13.3
that has the industrial policy,
36:15.3
has the trade policy, but because of our concern,
36:17.3
because of what corruption is happening, we just don't want to do anything.
36:19.3
Let's just focus on the private sector.
36:21.3
Oh, by the way, the private sector
36:23.3
is like an oligarchy.
36:25.3
Let's just focus on working abroad.
36:27.3
I think out of our discussion,
36:29.3
a number of things came out,
36:31.3
starting with Philippine studies
36:33.3
at the pedagogical, epistemological level.
36:35.3
I think the first thing
36:37.3
we emphasize here is
36:39.3
we lack a vocabulary of industrial policy.
36:41.3
Even our top democrats and economists
36:43.3
like Medallia, he would hint at it
36:45.3
but he would not go all the way.
36:47.3
Fabelli is kind of there, but Fabelli is still not
36:49.3
the voice among our economists.
36:51.3
He's more like the Keynes
36:53.3
except before Keynes was famous.
36:55.3
He's like Keynes of probably the 1920s.
36:57.3
Keynes of the 1940s.
37:01.3
the other thing is, you're absolutely right.
37:03.3
I think there's a lot of
37:05.3
demonization of the Philippine state
37:07.3
because of the bad experiences
37:09.3
we had under dictators, under very corrupt
37:11.3
leaders, but that in effect
37:13.3
also prevented us from appreciating
37:15.3
what the state could deliver
37:17.3
and should deliver in a modern era.
37:23.3
last up, because you know,
37:25.3
after our talk, I want to note it down.
37:27.3
Thanks to you, Ry, I stumble upon
37:29.3
many ideas that are there. And last,
37:31.3
before this escapes me, and last is
37:35.3
stuck with this moralistic debate
37:37.3
about corruption, forgetting that
37:39.3
empirically speaking, even many wealthy countries are still
37:41.3
corrupt, like Korea, right? How many of their presidents
37:43.3
end up in jail over the past 20 years?
37:45.3
Oh my God, US is so corrupt.
37:49.3
There's a car bribery scandal
37:51.3
in the House of Representatives
37:53.3
in the US where it's like you're
37:55.3
in the Philippines.
37:57.3
Donald Trump, right?
38:01.3
So, there's a lot of moralization
38:03.3
of politics without understanding
38:05.3
policy, public policy, and how
38:07.3
not to be Machiavellian
38:09.3
about it, but right? Public policy is about
38:11.3
stability and prosperity beyond
38:13.3
questions of morality and ethics. And I think we're still
38:15.3
stuck in a pre-modern political
38:17.3
thought. We're essentially pre-Machiavelli
38:19.3
political thought in the Philippines.
38:21.3
We haven't read Machiavelli, Hobbes,
38:23.3
and Buff, right? So,
38:25.3
those are the three takeaways I have from our
38:27.3
discussion here. Sorry, bro, if I had to cut it because
38:29.3
I might forget. It's 1AM.
38:37.3
or we were early professionals
38:39.3
during the Aquino period,
38:41.3
the second Aquino presidency.
38:43.3
And I remember, for a lot of my batchmates
38:45.3
and people who were younger than me,
38:47.3
a lot of them wanted to join
38:49.3
the government at that time.
38:53.3
say what you will about Noy Noy Aquino,
38:55.3
but he inspired people to go into
38:57.3
government. He inspired some of the best
38:59.3
and the brightest to go into government.
39:03.3
that's the other thing.
39:05.3
Huh? That's the other thing.
39:07.3
We need presidents like Noy Noy who will really
39:09.3
just say, you know, best and the brightest, come
39:11.3
work with me. And, you know, a lot of people said,
39:13.3
Oh, the Aquino administration,
39:15.3
parang campus politics.
39:19.3
that was an insult.
39:21.3
They thought it was an insult, but it wasn't.
39:23.3
Because that meant that the best and the brightest were joining
39:25.3
the Aquino administration.
39:27.3
In your generation,
39:29.3
I hope you get to feel that.
39:31.3
The Gen Z who are now graduating.
39:33.3
I hope one day we get a president
39:35.3
or even not a president,
39:37.3
more public officials who will make you want to join government.
39:39.3
If you don't like the president,
39:41.3
you don't want to join the government, that's fine.
39:43.3
But there are other officials that you can devote
39:45.3
your life to. You know, people like
39:47.3
Toto, local government officials.
39:49.3
These are people who will make you...
39:55.3
Department of Finance, GIBO, I mean,
39:57.3
these are decent people in government
39:59.3
or very smart people you want to work for.
40:01.3
To double back to our earlier conversation,
40:03.3
Marojas, if he becomes...
40:05.3
I feel like Lenny will get up
40:07.3
parang nalaos na si Marojas
40:09.3
sa mga people sa opposition.
40:11.3
Yeah, I think if Lenny had won,
40:13.3
he would have another campus politics, but even more
40:15.3
aggressive than the time of Aquino.
40:17.3
But unfortunately, it didn't happen. But should that mean
40:19.3
tapos na ang usapan? Let's just give up
40:21.3
on the Philippines?
40:23.3
Hindi. And ikaw, bro, kasi
40:25.3
nakikita mo eh. You're there in
40:27.3
California. You're an Asian...
40:31.3
and you're seeing other Asian Americans.
40:33.3
They're all moving to the ranks. The Vietnamese,
40:35.3
the Thai. So, nafifil mo na
40:37.3
medyo napag-iwanan ng Pilipinas,
40:39.3
diba? Ako naman because I travel a lot. I go around.
40:41.3
Nafifil ko yan. And for me,
40:43.3
well, a sulking over it is pathetic.
40:45.3
It's not going to change anything. So, we have to engage
40:47.3
the government. We have to help the government
40:49.3
even if, you know, we're not a fan of the
40:51.3
guy on top, right? Because hindi natin
40:53.3
makontrol yung voters. But maybe we can
40:55.3
help the number two, the number three, the number four,
40:57.3
the long-term state building project, etc.
40:59.3
Any final notes, bro? Because I know you know
41:01.3
you want to do your jiu-jitsu. I'm sorry, napatagal tayo
41:03.3
dito sa discussion. Actually, may sakit ako
41:05.3
naman ng jiu-jitsu today. So,
41:07.3
by the way, if you're jitsu,
41:09.3
you have a cold, don't go
41:11.3
because you're going to infect your partner.
41:13.3
Please don't do that.
41:15.3
There was a jiu-jitsu guy
41:17.3
I was told by my friend na MMA.
41:19.3
He's a German guy in Singapore,
41:21.3
scholar din, fantastic guy. He said there was
41:23.3
this jiu-jitsu guy, I forgot his name, na
41:25.3
sakaka, ano niya, diba, you get staph
41:27.3
infections if you don't do it properly.
41:29.3
So, nakaka-antibiotic siya,
41:31.3
antibiotic, hanggang wala nang chan niya.
41:35.3
He's this guy's champions na ano.
41:37.3
Para sabi niya, nakaka-addict kasi
41:43.3
Nakaka-addict yung BJJ because
41:45.3
it's so technical, it's so cerebral
41:47.3
that some people are so addicted, they cannot
41:49.3
take a break when they have infections.
41:51.3
They constantly go at it. It's just drugs.
41:53.3
So, please careful.
41:57.3
So, hindi ko gagawin yun.
41:59.3
Mas industrial policy yung focus ko ngayon
42:05.3
I don't have final thoughts but
42:07.3
I wanna thank you.
42:09.3
One of the things that I am not capable of doing
42:11.3
is writing as quickly as you do
42:13.3
and as much as you do.
42:15.3
You're one of the few people who are actually
42:19.3
ang social media, ang inquirer,
42:21.3
ang presidente, ang policy people
42:23.3
with this idea of industrial policy
42:27.3
I hope when we look
42:29.3
years later when we look at the Google
42:31.3
engram and tumataas yung mentions
42:33.3
ng industrial policy sa Pilipinas,
42:35.3
I hope na driven yun
42:37.3
by Richard de Tarrian.
42:39.3
Thank you so much for that.
42:41.3
You know me. It goes both ways.
42:43.3
Medyo nagbromance na naman tayo.
42:45.3
How should I put it?
42:49.3
I get a lot of energy out of dealing with people
42:51.3
like you. Honestly, it would have been much lonelier
42:53.3
because imagine all the idiots I have to deal with
42:55.3
on my own. Our supporters are fantastic
42:57.3
people but you know who I'm talking about.
42:59.3
All of these people out there who have
43:01.3
no originality, no global outlook,
43:03.3
no nothing like that but they have their niche
43:05.3
and whatever. Nakaka-innervate
43:07.3
yun, bro. But when I talk to you, I talk to
43:09.3
my other favorite co-host,
43:11.3
Ronald, you know like
43:13.3
I realize not only
43:15.3
are you kindred spirits,
43:17.3
you also happen not to be idiots.
43:19.3
So probably I'm not
43:21.3
an idiot too, right? So by extension,
43:23.3
baka naman, di ba?
43:25.3
Baka naman I'm not having this megalomaniac
43:29.3
Hindi mo ikagaslight yung sarili mo into thinking something else.
43:33.3
baka nga I'm out of touch.
43:35.3
I'll be honest. There are times I question myself,
43:37.3
baka ang daming galit sa akin ng mga bashers
43:39.3
na baka ako yung mali. And I think
43:41.3
hindi. May mga matalinong iba agree
43:43.3
sa akin. So okay, go back.
43:47.3
I'm very thankful, bro, for
43:51.3
tapos na yung lonely moment because I know
43:53.3
both of us had to deal with a lot of
43:55.3
solitude because of the whole politics
43:57.3
and intellectual environment and all.
43:59.3
But now, it's more like, okay,
44:01.3
let's get the ball rolling, bro. Let's help the
44:03.3
country. Let's push the ideas. And as I
44:05.3
always said, bro, you never know who's listening
44:07.3
to us. Next thing I know, mga aboy
44:09.3
sa Ayala palang nakikinig sa atin
44:11.3
because last time I checked, Ayala Museum people
44:13.3
were listening to us. So
44:15.3
shout out to Ayala Museum friends. All of the
44:17.3
friends, especially including yung mga nasa
44:19.3
corporate world na hindi nagsasalita, thank you
44:21.3
for watching us. I know this is one of the things
44:23.3
that a lot of Filipino people
44:25.3
who have this kind of bent for intellectual
44:27.3
conversation are looking forward to.
44:29.3
I'm super proud that
44:31.3
I kept you interested enough. I know you're a busy
44:33.3
guy. You have a lot of things on your table
44:35.3
but I appreciate, bro, you
44:37.3
hours into talking to
44:39.3
me, right? I hope I'm
44:41.3
and I hope something concrete comes
44:43.3
out of this and we can build on that. Malay mo,
44:45.3
may seminar na tayo on industrial
44:47.3
policy. Interdisciplinary historians,
44:51.3
public policy economists,
44:53.3
vloggers, tiktokers, bring over.
44:55.3
Let's make industrial policy sexy
44:57.3
again just like in US para lahat tayo magsuit
44:59.3
ng damit like you.
45:03.3
thing. Maraming interested
45:05.3
sa industrial policy.
45:07.3
Don't hate me but
45:09.3
si Thinking Pinoy has a
45:11.3
great economic mind
45:13.3
and he is talking about
45:15.3
industrial policy.
45:17.3
Nag-aara na siya sa York University. Of course
45:19.3
he has to know. I hate
45:21.3
Thinking Pinoy's politics.
45:23.3
I hate his defense of Duterte.
45:25.3
I hate his defense of the
45:27.3
Marcoses but when he talks about
45:29.3
industrial policy in a bigger
45:33.3
intersections with him, you know?
45:35.3
So, there are people out there
45:37.3
na parang akala mo, kaaway mo
45:39.3
pero hindi mo kaaway on certain
45:41.3
levels. Bro, you've been debating
45:43.3
society, my organization. Of course
45:45.3
lahat kami magaling kahit yung iba malina
45:47.3
yung mga napuntahan sa buhay so
45:49.3
I'm totally unsurprised to see
45:51.3
I saw in the past of his vlogs
45:53.3
I stumbled upon kasi sabi ng mami ko
45:55.3
Anak, panorin mo si Thinking Pinoy
45:57.3
Bakit ko pa panorin? Kasi ginagawa
45:59.3
niya yung background mo, purong books na
46:01.3
So, walang yan. The next thing
46:03.3
I know, yung mga analysis ng mga
46:05.3
oligarchies, yung mga analysis
46:07.3
ng mga ganon. So, I know he has that
46:09.3
bent and now I think he's studying in York University.
46:11.3
So, you know, ako naman
46:15.3
politics is politics,
46:17.3
ideology is ideology but the national interest
46:19.3
is national interest
46:21.3
and I'm willing to work with anyone if it serves the country
46:23.3
short of compromising my values
46:25.3
and all, right? So, it's not
46:27.3
easy. We're not born in Norway. We're not
46:29.3
from New Zealand. So, let's just be clear about that, right?
46:35.3
Having said that, there's a lot
46:37.3
we can do, bro. And my sense is, again,
46:39.3
I know we're probably getting ahead of ourselves pero
46:41.3
parang feeling ko, ano na natin?
46:43.3
Parinding ano natin? I think
46:45.3
we're kind of the young Turks na eh, di ba?
46:47.3
We're kind of the young Turks
46:49.3
of this thing. Let's
46:51.3
push the envelope.
46:53.3
Let's keep on talking about it, no?
46:55.3
Because you never know who's listening.
46:57.3
Thank you so much, brother. I hope you enjoy your birthday
46:59.3
the other week. May utang pa rin ako sa'yo, ha?
47:03.3
a posh restaurant in the Philippines than in San Francisco
47:05.3
kasi mas mahal dyan.
47:07.3
But keep it posh.
47:09.3
I owe you. Yeah, yeah.
47:11.3
Bro, your Sabbath.
47:13.3
Enjoy your Sabbath. Thank you so much, bro.
47:15.3
And enjoy your rest from Brazil
47:17.3
and Jiu-Jitsu. And now I'm gonna go and
47:19.3
go back to my, ano, FIFA.
47:25.3
God bless. Thank you very much, guys.
47:29.3
Thank you very much, bro!
