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00:00.0
Ako tinira siya ni Patrician, ni Sasot, ni Balakbay, etc.
00:05.8
So buhay, buhay ngayon. Buhay ang negosyo.
00:11.0
Alright, speaking of West Philippine Sea, may bagong billboard si Riza Ontiveros, sinend mo sakin.
00:22.0
Well, there were several billboards na lumabas ngayon sa EDSA.
00:26.0
Together with Manny Pacquiao, Riza Ontiveros, and other NGOs.
00:33.0
Basically, calling for Filipinos to support the frontliners in the West Philippine Sea, fishermen and Coast Guard.
00:42.0
And then asking them to join a convoy next month going to BRP Cerramante for early Christmas.
00:50.0
A Christmas convoy bringing gifts to Coast Guards and the soldiers in BRP Cerramante.
00:57.0
So, I think it's going to be an interesting convoy.
01:01.0
Because they're going to design the boats as Christmas boats.
01:07.0
With parol, with Christmas lights, with Christmas trees, with belen, with a child in the manger, etc.
01:15.0
And then full of media, full of fishermen, full of youth leaders.
01:20.0
Actually, mahihirapan ng China. Pag hinahirapan nila, they will look bad.
01:25.0
Pag pinagpaginadaan nila, talo sila.
01:28.0
So, it's a damage we do, damage we do strategy.
01:33.0
Very interesting.
01:34.0
Yung billboards, I think part of the campaign.
01:39.0
Ang problema ay binabanatan...
01:44.0
Sorry, yeah, go ahead.
01:45.0
Binabanatan si Riza for early campaign.
01:47.0
Pero he's not running for the midterms.
01:50.0
Riza just won. Anong kabobuhan na early campaign?
01:54.0
What early campaign?
01:55.0
It's like, what, 2028?
01:57.0
I mean, this is crazy.
01:59.0
Pero hindi mo naman kailangan ng reason.
02:03.0
Hindi mo naman kailangan ng logic para mag-bash it.
02:07.0
So, yun yung ginagaya.
02:09.0
Okay, before we go to the operational, military aspect of this.
02:14.0
Of course, I wrote just a piece on this, on latest satellite imagery
02:19.0
that shows significant improvements across ETCA.
02:22.0
Let's just stick to this issue of Riza.
02:24.0
It's very interesting.
02:25.0
It looks like Riza right now is kinda like Justice Scarpio times Pinoy times...
02:34.0
She's becoming like the embodiment of the West Philippine Sea fight.
02:37.0
Parang mother Philippines type.
02:40.0
I mean, in a sense that you're mainstreaming this, making it like an everyday issue.
02:46.0
Like parang household issue na in West Philippine Sea, right?
02:49.0
Not in terms of urgency.
02:51.0
Of course, it's not the same level of inflation or employment. I understand it.
02:54.0
But it's like West Philippine Sea right now is an everyday issue
02:58.0
in ways that was unthinkable not long ago.
03:01.0
I mean, this is quite interesting.
03:03.0
I mean, Ronald, did you ever think in your lifetime that this will happen?
03:07.0
And then you also mentioned something very interesting.
03:09.0
They're gonna make this very festive, festive geopolitics, right?
03:14.0
But it kinda reminds me of those nuns that put flowers in the gun of, you know, during ETCA
03:19.0
or during yung mga revolution in Latin America, you know.
03:23.0
It's a very interesting way of soft power talaga.
03:27.0
Soft power but high stakes soft power.
03:30.0
Because how do you confront the biggest navy in the world?
03:33.0
How do you confront the biggest armed forces in the world, you know?
03:37.0
Then you use their weight against them.
03:39.0
And one thing we are strong of, strong with, is culture.
03:45.0
Where religion is also part of culture.
03:48.0
So, hindi ko may mangin how the Chinese will respond.
03:52.0
How the Chinese navy will respond to a convoy of boats, you know, fishing vessels
03:59.0
na palibot ng parol, palibot ng Christmas lights, may Christmas tree.
04:05.0
Some of them will even be bringing Santa Claus.
04:09.0
And then gifts, you know, gifts on the bow of the ship.
04:14.0
So, di ba? Pag hinarang nila yan, magagalit ang mga Pinoy.
04:19.0
Pag pinagdaan nila, parang naman silang talo.
04:23.0
Doon sa issue ng Ayumi and TRP-Siana matter na for now, galit na galit sila.
04:28.0
Kaya, it's a good tactic. It's a good tactic.
04:33.0
Tingin ko it's a win-win situation for those who organize this project.
04:39.0
Si Risa, from the past six years naman talaga, critical siya sa China.
04:44.0
Di ba? For the past six years, siya yung front line.
04:48.0
Yung criticism against China.
04:50.0
At nitong nakaraang taon, galit na galit siya sa kanya sa China
04:54.0
dahil publicly she met the President of Taiwan.
04:58.0
Di ba? Nakalima-anin yata na diplomatic protest in China sa ating DFA.
05:06.0
For that trip alone.
05:08.0
Kalawa, siya lang practically nag-iisang opposition sa Senate.
05:14.0
At ikatlo, dito sa engagement si Sarah, kung si Congresswoman Castro ang front line sa Congress,
05:22.0
sa Senate, si Risa yung front line.
05:25.0
Kaya, in a way, logical yung narrative na ito.
05:29.0
Amazing, no? We have all these strong women at the very forefront.
05:33.0
I'm just so proud to say that as a Filipino man,
05:36.0
that I come from a country where it's really this Amazon,
05:41.0
like really strong women, both upper house, lower.
05:45.0
I'm really proud and I'm really happy with that.
05:47.0
As a Filipino, I think that's what makes us really special in so many ways.
05:51.0
Now, obviously, aside from doing this public diplomacy,
05:56.0
this festive diplomacy, soft power diplomacy,
05:59.0
we're doing things that are also not very soft, right?
06:02.0
Let's talk about the Enhanced Defense Cooperation Agreement.
06:05.0
Let's talk about things we're doing on the ground to actually enhance our position.
06:10.0
Now, speaking of enhanced, let's talk about the Enhanced Defense Cooperation Agreement.
06:13.0
There is a new report by the Asian Maritime Transparency Initiative,
06:17.0
by the CSIS in Washington, D.C.
06:19.0
Of course, for transparency purposes, I do also contribute to them.
06:22.0
I've also written on the latest analysis.
06:25.0
The title is More Than Meets the Eye.
06:27.0
Hindi ito pa-cute lang, pa-pogi lang. Maraming nangyayari.
06:31.0
If you're China, you have more than just the flotilla and the festive diplomacy to worry about.
06:38.0
You have many different sites to worry about.
06:40.0
If you're in China right now, you should be very, very worried if you read this report.
06:44.0
So base sa reports na yan, dun sa nine different bases on EDCA,
06:48.0
actually many developments have been happening.
06:50.0
The most developed so far is in BASA Air Base, sa may Pampanga,
06:54.0
na hindi ganun kalayo sa Panatakshol.
06:57.0
At siya po ay nagreceive ng $66.57 million from the United States
07:03.0
for the improvement of a whole host of projects,
07:05.0
including humanitarian assistance and disaster relief,
07:08.0
command and control infrastructure, fuel storage, runaway improvements,
07:12.0
and aircraft parking.
07:14.0
Of course, that will be very important just in case there'll be contingency and all,
07:17.0
magpadala ka ng mga aircrafts.
07:19.0
We also see a lot of improvement in Bautista Air Base,
07:23.0
na malapit naman dyan sa Spratlys or Calayan group of islands.
07:27.0
But yung Balapak Island po, nearby ito, nasa Palawan dito,
07:33.0
nagde-develop na rin po tayo ng isang multi-kilometer long runway already.
07:39.0
So, so much is going on.
07:41.0
And of course, in the north of the Philippines,
07:43.0
there are now conversations also about the U.S. help building port facilities in Batanes
07:50.0
in addition to the sites, military sites, that will be developed dyan sa Cagayan and Isabela.
07:56.0
So, whoa, a lot of things are happening.
07:59.0
And as I argue, if you are China right now,
08:03.0
you have to figure out ano yung i-prioritize mo dyan.
08:09.0
In the sense that if you press the Philippines here like a balloon,
08:13.0
we could expand somewhere else, right?
08:15.0
So, there's so much room for negotiations here.
08:18.0
I think this shows if the Philippines takes the initiative,
08:21.0
it gives the leverage to us.
08:22.0
So, now we can talk to the Chinese and say,
08:24.0
bubulin mo kami sa West Philippine Sea,
08:26.0
lagot kayo sa amin sa Taiwan to tulungan namin mga Amerikano.
08:29.0
Bubulin nyo kami dito.
08:32.0
So, I think now, again, this is not to praise BBM or anything like that,
08:36.0
but in fairness, the Philippines is in quite a sweet spot.
08:41.0
I mean, you and I, of course, as progressives,
08:43.0
I don't relish us relying on any foreign powers,
08:46.0
and I don't want us to rely on any foreign powers,
08:48.0
but this cooperation on EDCA is giving us some space,
08:51.0
some room for maneuver with China, no?
08:53.0
Or even perhaps more than that.
08:56.0
Well, Richard, may distinct location kasi tayo sa lahat na may…
09:01.0
First, dahil sa history, tayo talaga yung pinakamatagal ng relasyon sa Amerika.
09:08.0
Even if we started on an invasion where a huge number of Filipinos were killed.
09:15.0
Historically, tayo yung pinakamatagal na naging colony at naging kaibigan ng US,
09:24.0
even if it's not necessarily to our advantage.
09:28.0
Ikalawa, putitignan mo lahat ng surveys.
09:32.0
Rightly or wrongly, ay very friendly ang mga Pilipinos sa US.
09:38.0
Even during the time of Duterte.
09:41.0
Even during the height ng ating anti-US struggle during the dictatorship,
09:47.0
most Filipinos ay malapit pa rin sa Amerika, or very friendly.
09:52.0
Especially since there are more than 5 million Filipinos living in the US.
09:58.0
At kakiro, nangyari itong 9-9, nangyari itong 10-9, nangyari itong artificial islands,
10:10.0
nangyari itong aggression sa ating EEZ, kaya nagsampa tayo ng kaso.
10:15.0
We're the only country na nagsampa ng kaso sa UNCLOS and won.
10:20.0
And won. Kaya itong mga variables na ito, I think puts us in a very, not only strategic location,
10:31.0
but in a very sweet location vis-a-vis the Americas.
10:36.0
Ngayon, yung pinag-uusapan natin ng EDCA is related to three different issues.
10:44.0
One, yung ating claim sa West Philippine Sea. Ating EEZ na awag ni Secretary Guilbao Jodorow,
10:52.0
is a creeping invasion.
10:55.0
Ikalawa, the freedom of navigation issue.
10:57.0
Which goes back to Ramos actually. Just to be fair, President Ramos himself would raise that term.
11:02.0
So it's not original to Guilbao.
11:04.0
Ikalawa yung freedom of navigation issue na not necessarily within our EEZ.
11:12.0
Sa gitna ng South China Sea. At ikatlo yung Taiwan.
11:19.0
Yung first five EDCA clearly is in relation with our claims in the West Philippine Sea.
11:26.0
Yung sumunod ng mga EDCA sites and possibly more, is more mixed.
11:34.0
It's in relation to the three issues of our claims in the West Philippine Sea.
11:39.0
The freedom of navigation in one of the most significant waterways in the world.
11:45.0
At ikatlo yung Taiwan.
11:48.0
Kaya mix yung aking feelings dun sa bases o yung EDCA bases.
11:58.0
Yung landlocked provinces na clearly mas in relation sa Basa Strait.
12:05.0
Mas in relation sa possibility of a war in Taiwan.
12:09.0
Yun yung doon ako may ambivalence. Doon ako may reservation.
12:14.0
Yun yung nangyayari.
12:16.0
Yung nga pansin ka. Actually bati ako rin medyo ambivalent ako because I'm not gonna vouch.
12:21.0
Ganito kasi Ronald, my sense is this is not presentism in the sense of thinking
12:26.0
oh because panhon natin yan, this is a special panhon.
12:28.0
But I think it is. I think, Ronald, after more than 100 years of being either America's colony
12:35.0
or semi-colony or protectorate, eto na yung chance natin to be a kind of a self-respecting
12:42.0
semi-power of our own.
12:43.0
An ally can say no and yes, depending on what serves us.
12:48.0
And my sense is Marcos can make the most out of this.
12:53.0
Whether he can make the most out of this in our question.
12:55.0
But I think we are in a sweet spot. Yun yung sense ko talaga ngayon.
12:58.0
Now you say you're from the Philippines, we're talked about.
13:02.0
I mean that's the reason why I'm going around and talking, right?
13:04.0
Because for six years I was just going around explaining what Tatay was saying.
13:09.0
That was my job. Now that antics is gone, I'm really talking about serious stuff.
13:15.0
Like what are the operational implications, what can we do in EDCA, strategic stability.
13:19.0
As a Filipino, I feel we're taken more seriously than ever, right?
13:23.0
And as a Filipino, I think there's a lot of room for autonomous action and maneuver here.
13:28.0
And I think if we play the EDCA card well, meaning, as I call it, Goldilocks.
13:34.0
Meaning not too much American presence to undermine our sovereignty and provoke China.
13:39.0
But also not too small to make it irrelevant, right?
13:41.0
If EDCA is just a bunch of skeletal bases here and there, din wala rin silvia.
13:46.0
So we have to find the right balance.
13:48.0
And also the right balance between how can we protect our interests more urgently as the West Philippine Sea.
13:55.0
While at the same time being prepared for contingencies in Taiwan.
13:58.0
That's very difficult.
13:59.0
So my question to you, Ronald, is do you think there are enough smart people out there right now
14:05.0
for the president to make the right call?
14:09.0
Or in theory, do you think we have enough strategic thinkers?
14:13.0
Aside, of course, of yours truly.
14:22.0
Kasi simula lang, kahit medyo tahimik lang, maganda itong effort na ginagawa nila
14:28.0
Senator Rizal Deveros, Father Edicio de la Torre,
14:32.0
the Vice Chairman of the Anti-Republican Commission,
14:36.0
itong si Bonnie Pacquiao, etc.
14:39.0
Itong kanilang convoy, itong Christmas convoy, itong kanilang,
14:44.0
yung ginagawa ni Noel Cabangon to organize a concert on the West Philippine Sea,
14:50.0
itong mga billboards na nagshulputan,
14:52.0
itong plano ng Student Alliance, Student Council Alliance of the Philippines
15:01.0
to do a caravan on major schools
15:04.0
to explain our victory in UNCLOS, to explain our entitlement to the West Philippine Sea,
15:11.0
and other activities.
15:13.0
Gagawa sila ng animation, three minutes animation, West Philippine Sea, UNCLOS for Beginners,
15:21.0
na hindi pa nagawa before.
15:23.0
So maraming moving parts, yung tahimik na nangyayari ngayon.
15:27.0
Kung alam mo, last week, nagkaroon ng rally nationwide
15:31.0
ang RAM, Reformed Armed Forces Movement, sa Chinese Embassy.
15:37.0
These are ex-soldiers.
15:39.0
Hunasan people, this is Hunasan.
15:42.0
Gusto sumama ngayon dito sa koalisyon ng ate nito, nila Visa,
15:45.0
yung Wansang Bayanan, nagkukandil sila ngayon.
15:51.0
They're trying to link up with this emerging coalition.
15:54.0
Tapos may mga group ng yat owners, yat owners, katamaran owners,
16:00.0
na gustong sumama sa convoy ng fishermen.
16:03.0
It's beginning to look like a Dunkirk project, going to Ayugin.
16:08.0
So iyang mga yan, hopefully will create not only a critical mass of Filipinos
16:14.0
na nauunawaan itong issue nito, unlike in the past.
16:17.0
Kung hindi pwede magkaroon ng isang sustained effort,
16:21.0
na hindi lang tayo dependent sa EDCA,
16:24.0
hindi lang tayo dependent sa military exercises,
16:27.0
magkaroon talaga ng organizing, magkaroon talaga ng education movement,
16:32.0
magkaroon talaga ng series of actions, mostly cultural,
16:37.0
to unite the Filipino on the issue of the West Philippine Sea,
16:42.0
on OCLOS, on Chinese aggression.
16:44.0
Para hindi naman tayo puro na lang military exercises,
16:48.0
puro na lang EDCA bases, puro na lang exchanges with the West.
16:54.0
Magkaroon din tayo ng sariling strength.
16:57.0
Tingin ko yun yung agenda ng mga initiator, itong atin, itong movement.
17:03.0
Nasa ngayon nagsisimulang maging popular yung sign.
17:06.0
Yung sign is just three fingers, W.
17:09.0
So tingin ko this will be a household sign.
17:14.0
Tingin ko this is just the start of something beautiful,
17:18.0
something not only nationalistic but something which is sustainable.
17:24.0
And very progressive.
17:27.0
Kaya hindi lang tayo mag-realize ang narrative ng EDCA,
17:30.0
hindi lang tayo mag-realize ang narrative ng military exercises,
17:34.0
hindi lang tayo mag-realize ang narrative ng emerging Taiwan conflict.
17:39.0
Magkaroon tayo ng sariling agenda.
17:42.0
Speaking of this, Ronald,
17:45.0
essentially we're talking about a whole-of-nation approach.
17:48.0
This cannot be just left to the DFA, this cannot just be left to the Philippine Coast Guard,
17:52.0
this cannot be just left to Bombo Marcos or the whole Tambalas-Los Drama.
17:56.0
This has to be a whole-of-nation approach.
17:58.0
So in that sense, we're mainstreaming something that should be dear to all of us.
18:02.0
And just to be clear about it, yung mga bakery forum analysis na
18:06.0
7% lang naman nagsabi na urgent yung West Philippines.
18:10.0
That doesn't mean the 7% only care about West Philippines.
18:13.0
That's quite a dumb spin.
18:15.0
Because that just means it's not their concern today and tomorrow morning.
18:19.0
That doesn't mean they don't care.
18:21.0
So doon mo makikita talaga na medyo barangay-pre-barangay level pa rin yung mga analyst ng China.
18:28.0
But that's also partly true.
18:29.0
Dahil hindi ganoon karami nakakaunawa sa ating close victory.
18:34.0
Hindi ganoon karami.
18:36.0
Kaya nakikita natin yung contradiction na napakaraming Pinoy ang critical sa China against Chinese aggression.
18:44.0
Pero popular pa rin si Dico na purely pro-China.
18:47.0
So mayroon pa rin dysfunction.
18:51.0
Ang kulang dyan is the politicalization, the education, the explanation.
18:59.0
Kaya maganda na gagawa sila na animation, cartoons about the West Philippine Sea.
19:06.0
Dahil beyond that, wala na manonood.
19:09.0
Wala na manonood.
19:10.0
And then yung 2-3 minutes, isa-slice din nila katulad yung ginagawa natin.
19:15.0
Now, to close on this note, I have of course another show program where I interview people.
19:22.0
Hindi ko pa na-interview yung Chinese and American ambassador.
19:25.0
Yung Chinese parang huwag na lang. I'll pass on that.
19:28.0
So yung American ambassador, quite soon.
19:30.0
Pero na-interview ko yung mga ibang ambassadors.
19:33.0
India, France, Britain, Ireland. Ang dami ko na-interview.
19:38.0
And to be honest, ang feeling ko, ang dami natin pwede nga asaan na partners.
19:44.0
Na hindi dating colonial master natin.
19:47.0
Na hindi superpower na gusto lang nila their way or highway.
19:50.0
Yung mga middle power na medyo ka-level natin.
19:53.0
Kaya natin kausapin at the same level wavelength.
19:57.0
At pwede maging very beneficial sa akin.
20:02.0
In a sense that, I mean, we can get...
20:05.0
The French are offering submarines.
20:07.0
The British are offering all sorts of intelligence and training.
20:10.0
The Koreans and Japanese are offering us maritime security, coast guard capability.
20:15.0
The Indians are giving us Brahma supersonic missile.
20:18.0
And then the Indonesians and Malaysians want to have more naval exercises with us.
20:22.0
The Singaporeans are also offering us more surveillance.
20:25.0
So, actually, ang dami natin options.
20:27.0
It's a huge menu.
20:29.0
So, it's not like just two elephants and we're a grass.
20:32.0
There's like two elephants, there's three zebras, there's a lion, there's a tiger.
20:36.0
It's a zoo. It's an interesting zoo with many options.
20:39.0
So, I think this idea of pro-China, ang boy, China boy.
20:43.0
It's dumb because it's a buffet.
20:47.0
It's a a la carte.
20:49.0
Let's call it. It's a a la carte diplomacy.
20:51.0
We can do a la carte diplomacy and go whichever way we want.
20:55.0
So, I just feel there's so much more we can do.
20:58.0
And this is really my approach.
20:59.0
That's why the idiots who call themselves ang boy, ang boy.
21:02.0
Like, you don't know what you're talking about.
21:04.0
I'll slap these people around.
21:06.0
Because yesterday, when I was in Singapore, I bashed those in China and Singapore.
21:11.0
Like, they feel sorry for me.
21:13.0
But I made sure I don't violate laws in Singapore.
21:16.0
And they were shocked.
21:18.0
Because when I bash you on Twitter, all my followers will bash you after me.
21:24.0
So, they're like blocking their accounts.
21:26.0
Then I said, maybe you want me to tag your friends here in Manila in the bakery forum to help you.
21:32.0
Because the script is exactly the same.
21:34.0
But anyway, let's close this episode.
21:36.0
Because I think it sets the tone for our next episode.
21:38.0
Which is, I think the Philippines has to also play a greater role as one of the leaders in the developing world.
21:45.0
In the global south. In the ASEAN.
21:47.0
And President Marcos, Jr., surprise, surprise, is going to be on travel soon again.
21:53.0
But I think this one makes sense.
21:54.0
He's going to Saudi Arabia.
21:56.0
Which is not too far from where the major conflict of the moment is happening.
22:02.0
And it's going to be an ASEAN-Gulf-Arab countries interaction.
22:06.0
I think it's a perfect time for Southeast Asia and West Asia to come and talk together.
22:10.0
So, we'll have a separate episode on that.
22:12.0
That one is going to be much more serious and intense.
22:14.0
So, don't expect R&R mode all the time.
22:17.0
But thank you very much again, Secretary Llamas, for this fascinating discussion.
22:25.0
Let's do this last one.
22:27.0
Okay, here we are.
22:29.0
President Marcos, Jr., on his nth travel.
22:33.0
But in fairness, I am with him on this one.
22:35.0
I'm not sure about the Grand Prix.
22:37.0
I was just in Singapore the other day.
22:39.0
And the other regular customers of Bongbong Marcos are half-jokingly expecting it.
22:45.0
I said, don't take that for granted.
22:47.0
Maybe Monaco is more of a type.
22:49.0
Because Singapore is high level.
22:51.0
But there's even higher than Singapore.
22:53.0
But anyway, he's going now to a country which is even wealthier than Singapore.
22:58.0
And that's letter S also.
23:00.0
And that's Saudi Arabia.
23:01.0
But obviously, Saudi Arabia right now is a very, very important country
23:05.0
because it's becoming a very active geopolitical player.
23:09.0
Not long ago, we were hearing about even talks potentially between Saudi Arabia and Israel
23:14.0
for normalization, which could have become a political earthquake, a geopolitical earthquake.
23:19.0
But all of that is obviously out of the window.
23:22.0
Now, the last time we talked, Secretary Leamas, it was freshly out of the horrible massacres
23:29.0
that even claimed the lives of some of our Kababayans by militant groups who burst into Israel.
23:37.0
But as we talk right now, thousands of civilians have been killed in Gaza,
23:43.0
including a lot of children.
23:46.0
And words like war crimes are coming out.
23:50.0
Even inside Israel, people are attacking Netanyahu.
23:53.0
I mean, suddenly European Union, Norway, Ireland are talking more critically.
23:58.0
So the mood has dramatically changed just in a week.
24:01.0
Because the response to the attacks on Israel last week, for many people, is not proportionate at all.
24:08.0
And for some people, it has way crossed the line.
24:11.0
So you have China, Vietnam, Russia, Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, Brazil,
24:16.0
many of these countries coming out and emphasizing the rights of the Palestinian people,
24:20.0
the need for a just peace.
24:22.0
So with all of that happening, a part of me is wondering, where is the Philippines?
24:27.0
Because obviously, the Philippines is close to America.
24:30.0
President Marcos met the envoy from Israel.
24:33.0
Of course, our Kababayans died.
24:37.0
The Filipinos are very angry. I completely understand that.
24:40.0
My understanding also is that maybe this is time for the Philippines also to listen to the rest of the global south
24:46.0
and look at it from a bigger picture.
24:49.0
Which is, if we want to protect the interests of OFWs,
24:52.0
if we want to be one of the pillars of the global south,
24:55.0
we have to have a balanced approach which is beyond just tit for tat,
25:00.0
but looks at a just, lasting solution to the Palestine-Arab-Israeli conflict.
25:08.0
My sense is that President Marcos Jr. will step up the diplomatic game as he goes to Riyadh.
25:14.0
Because his father, you and I are not fans of Marcos Sr. when it comes to human rights and economy,
25:20.0
but his father was a global south leader.
25:24.0
If you look at his speeches in the Afro-Asia Summit,
25:29.0
he was one of the founders of ASEAN.
25:31.0
I was just talking to my Singaporean friends the other day,
25:33.0
and you know what my Singaporean friends were telling me, Ronald?
25:36.0
They were saying, for a long time, we Singaporeans had to punch well above our weight
25:41.0
because our fellow countrymen are a bit lazy.
25:43.0
But now, as Indonesia comes into form, becomes a major power, is speaking out,
25:49.0
and they're hoping the Philippines also steps up
25:51.0
because Singapore is also going through its transition right now.
25:54.0
There could be a new leader, a new prime minister soon.
25:56.0
So, what they're saying is, don't rely too much on us.
25:59.0
We're just a small country. We're just a city-state.
26:01.0
We cannot carry the water.
26:02.0
So actually, they feel embarrassed when everyone is expecting Singapore.
26:05.0
So, he was asking me, how are you doing in the Philippines?
26:08.0
And I was saying, actually, in theory,
26:10.0
Marco Jr. could continue his father's legacy on one thing good,
26:14.0
and that one thing good is on foreign policy,
26:16.0
including the leadership within the global south.
26:19.0
So, Ronald, this is not the conversation you usually hear in the Philippines, right?
26:23.0
I mean, this is something very different.
26:25.0
This is a very global Filipino way of thinking about it.
26:29.0
So, I wanted to get your point of view on this.
26:33.0
Well, I was able to visit Israel and Palestine several times.
26:41.0
As a guest of the former prime minister, Shimon Peres,
26:44.0
which was the leader of the Labour Party of Israel,
26:47.0
and as a guest of ATA, the party of Yasser Arafat.
26:53.0
In West Bank, where there is no Hamas, just to be clear,
26:56.0
because people think Hamas, Hamas is everywhere.
26:58.0
Hamas is just in Gaza.
27:00.0
West Bank is under...
27:01.0
There's a lot of different groups in Palestine.
27:03.0
Exactly. People forget. Everyone says Hamas, Hamas.
27:05.0
So, I was there several times.
27:07.0
I even met Arafat in Lisbon in 1999.
27:11.0
So, I have a few insights on what was happening there,
27:20.0
even way before the present dynamics.
27:26.0
Yesterday, I attended a forum about the issue of Gaza,
27:31.0
organized by Centro, a trade union center.
27:36.0
Their speaker is Marie, of Friedrich Ebert Stiftung,
27:41.0
the new resident, who lived and worked...
27:44.0
Used to be there in Tel Aviv, I think, yeah.
27:47.0
For several years.
27:48.0
So, it's really hard.
27:52.0
First, this is historical.
27:55.0
And to a great extent, it's not directly the fault
28:00.0
of the Israelis and the Palestinians.
28:03.0
It's about old colonizers.
28:07.0
Like the British.
28:08.0
Yeah, it's their fault.
28:10.0
Divided the Middle East into unsustainable countries,
28:17.0
which, to a great extent, are the roots of the present crisis,
28:22.0
the present conflicts in most of the Middle East right now.
28:27.0
Of course, Ronald, sorry, sorry.
28:29.0
Let's just be clear.
28:30.0
So, the British messed it up big time,
28:32.0
just like they did in India and Pakistan.
28:34.0
The whole India-Pakistan, again.
28:36.0
But also the Holocaust with Nazi Germany.
28:39.0
So, Europe has a lot of historical responsibility
28:43.0
for this mess that our Jewish and Muslim and Christian brothers...
28:47.0
Christian, by the way, because they're Palestinians
28:49.0
or Christians too, but people forget, right?
28:51.0
So, in a way, this is a kind of...
28:54.0
Everyone is a victim of the colonial legacy also here
28:58.0
and the horrible Holocaust that happened under Nazi Germany.
29:01.0
So, we have to be clear about, first of all, that.
29:03.0
Because people think this is an ancient war
29:05.0
between Muslims and Jews.
29:09.0
This is a product of Western colonization
29:11.0
and Nazi Germany Holocaust.
29:13.0
This is why we're in this very difficult situation right now.
29:18.0
We have to understand that Christianity, Islam, Judaism
29:24.0
all came from the Abrahamic religion,
29:30.0
culture, whatever we call it.
29:32.0
So, historically, spiritually,
29:36.0
they're not supposed to be antagonistic to each other.
29:39.0
But it was really complicated because of the history,
29:43.0
because of the politics,
29:46.0
because of the colonizers in the past.
29:51.0
So, it's not a black and white issue.
29:53.0
That is why, even in the present war,
29:57.0
it's hard to navigate it,
30:00.0
to create a common position.
30:03.0
For example, like us progressives.
30:06.0
Even progressive groups around the world
30:10.0
are debating intensely about this.
30:12.0
Even your school, Harvard,
30:15.0
is debating about this intensely.
30:18.0
And I don't see any proper positioning.
30:23.0
Let's not forget,
30:26.0
even prime ministers in Israel
30:31.0
are being assassinated by right-wing political forces.
30:38.0
Yes, Yitzhak Rabin.
30:39.0
So, you can't say that Israel is a monolithic country
30:44.0
with a clear anti-Palestinian sentiment.
30:48.0
That's your point.
30:50.0
Secondly, it became complicated for us
30:54.0
because we have 50,000 to 100,000 Filipino overseas workers there.
31:00.0
Now, in varying degrees,
31:02.0
I'm very welcome to the Israelis.
31:06.0
And the Palestinians are a bit angry
31:11.0
for allegedly taking their jobs
31:15.0
when they were forced to leave their jobs.
31:18.0
So, the complications are increasing
31:22.0
for us Filipinos.
31:24.0
Not only between Palestine and Israel.
31:27.0
I think, definitely, we have to condemn
31:30.0
the attack of Hamas on civilian populations.
31:35.0
The inhumanity done to...
31:37.0
There's no debate, right?
31:38.0
We're against any indiscriminate deliberate violence against civilians.
31:42.0
I think there's no debate about that, right?
31:44.0
Just to be clear.
31:45.0
Because there are a lot of dumb people out there.
31:48.0
But even some of our members in the progressive movement here,
31:51.0
they've never mentioned the attack of Hamas
31:59.0
on kibuts, on the concert.
32:03.0
Everything here is the fault of Israel.
32:08.0
I mean, Ronald, our countrymen died.
32:11.0
Our countrymen died.
32:14.0
You know what I'm saying?
32:16.0
I'm not going to mention them.
32:17.0
Yeah, let's not mention them.
32:20.0
Political organizations here,
32:23.0
if you read their statement,
32:25.0
no mention of the attack.
32:27.0
No mention of the barbarity done to the women,
32:34.0
There's no mention of that.
32:38.0
At the same time,
32:39.0
some of our friends
32:41.0
say that Israel is the only victim.
32:45.0
Israel is the only victim.
32:47.0
And like Palestinian lives are not equal human life.
32:51.0
Like when I post something about Palestinian children and all,
32:56.0
suddenly people start fighting.
32:57.0
And my point is like,
32:58.0
wait, so it's wrong to point out that Palestinians are also human beings
33:02.0
and that their plight should not be forgotten?
33:04.0
I mean, that's horrible.
33:05.0
That's unacceptable.
33:07.0
how Palestinians were treated in the wall.
33:10.0
When they entered the wall.
33:13.0
This is West Bank, right?
33:14.0
This is West Bank, not Gaza.
33:16.0
There's no Hamas there.
33:17.0
Just to be clear.
33:21.0
But not that big.
33:23.0
The collective punishment
33:25.0
in Gaza and West Bank,
33:27.0
when someone is involved
33:30.0
in an attack on Israel,
33:33.0
is evicted from their homes.
33:35.0
That kind of collective punishment.
33:37.0
That is what is happening now in Gaza.
33:39.0
That is collective punishment
33:41.0
on a bigger scale.
33:44.0
That's why the positioning is very delicate.
33:46.0
I think we have to condemn Hamas.
33:49.0
But we also have to criticize and condemn
33:52.0
what Israel is doing
33:54.0
to the civilian population
33:59.0
There was even this very tragic
34:01.0
story of one family
34:04.0
who listened to the call
34:07.0
for evacuation of Israel.
34:09.0
They allegedly went to the same area
34:12.0
and the whole family died.
34:17.0
Because they obeyed Israel
34:22.0
And when they went to the allegedly safe zone,
34:25.0
all of them died.
34:26.0
You mean from north to south, right?
34:28.0
From north to south.
34:30.0
So, this should really be documented.
34:33.0
This should really be done one by one.
34:36.0
Because it's not a simple issue.
34:38.0
It is collective punishment
34:40.0
on a grander scale.
34:42.0
And you have our ex-president
34:44.0
saying that Netanyahu
34:47.0
should transform Gaza
34:49.0
into the biggest cemetery in the world.
34:52.0
Did you hear that?
34:55.0
Yes, that's why I missed
34:57.0
his other statement
34:59.0
on West Philippine Sea
35:00.0
and giving the water and all.
35:01.0
Because I was so shocked by that.
35:04.0
I mean, not shocked
35:06.0
because I don't...
35:07.0
Shocked in a sense that
35:09.0
I mean, isn't this the president
35:11.0
who's supposed to talk about
35:12.0
Muslim, Christian unity
35:15.0
I'm the first moral president.
35:17.0
That just tells you
35:19.0
this guy was not fit to be the president.
35:23.0
He's not fit to be the president.
35:25.0
I'm sorry, I'm just saying.
35:26.0
He's not fit to be the president
35:28.0
but the mistake happened.
35:30.0
But hopefully, we learn our lessons
35:31.0
and move forward.
35:32.0
It just tells you
35:33.0
how out of touch he is.
35:34.0
For someone who's supposed to be
35:36.0
anti-West and all of that.
35:37.0
Look at statements of his own idols
35:40.0
or bosses in China.
35:41.0
China's position is absolutely clear.
35:43.0
Let me read what China has said on this.
35:46.0
Because I just had an article on that.
35:50.0
Maybe I shouldn't have cleared my dad
35:54.0
because he's spreading rumors here again.
35:57.0
I mean, China is very clear
35:59.0
that they're friends of both
36:01.0
Palestine and Israel
36:02.0
but the root cause of the problem
36:04.0
should not be forgotten.
36:05.0
This is both Wang Yi, right?
36:07.0
Both their foreign minister
36:09.0
and also their special envoy
36:12.0
I'm just trying to bring out
36:15.0
It's just for my dad.
36:17.0
It doesn't seem to be clear.
36:18.0
It doesn't seem to be clear.
36:19.0
It doesn't seem to be clear.
36:20.0
It doesn't seem to be clear.
36:23.0
As a friend to both Israel and Palestine,
36:25.0
what we hope to see
36:26.0
is the two countries
36:27.0
living together in peace.
36:29.0
The key to achieving that
36:30.0
lies in the realization
36:31.0
of the Two-State Solution
36:32.0
and establishment of
36:34.0
independent state of Palestine.
36:36.0
More interestingly,
36:37.0
is Chinese Wang Yi
36:38.0
who had a conversation
36:39.0
with the Saudi Arabian counterpart
36:44.0
China believes that
36:45.0
the historical injustices
36:46.0
against Palestine
36:48.0
more than half a century
36:49.0
and cannot go on.
36:51.0
Accordingly, he said
36:52.0
China stands ready
36:54.0
Saudi Arabian Arab countries
36:56.0
to continue supporting
36:58.0
just cause of restoring
36:59.0
their national rights.
37:00.0
It looks like their kid
37:02.0
in the Philippines
37:04.0
on their leader's position.
37:05.0
So that's how out of touch he is
37:07.0
because China right now
37:09.0
is the one championing
37:10.0
the rights of the Palestinian people.
37:12.0
And then their kid,
37:13.0
the barangay chairman there,
37:15.0
is very confusing.
37:16.0
At least he agreed
37:17.0
to give the water to China.
37:19.0
Just not the fish.
37:22.0
Let's be serious, Ronald.
37:23.0
Let's go back to that.
37:24.0
I mean, I just...
37:27.0
speaking of collective punishment,
37:29.0
because your president was like this
37:31.0
because your president is Digong,
37:32.0
we're all going to be punished
37:34.0
They're going to say
37:35.0
all Filipinos are like him.
37:36.0
You see, that's how stupid
37:37.0
collective punishment can become.
37:39.0
Because there are 16 million
37:40.0
who voted for Digong.
37:42.0
who didn't vote for Digong
37:44.0
are naturally responsible
37:46.0
for everything that Tatay does.
37:49.0
collective punishment, right?
37:52.0
So that's the logic
37:54.0
But going back...
37:55.0
I think, Richard,
37:59.0
most of the progressive movement.
38:03.0
a humanitarian corridor.
38:07.0
I think yesterday
38:08.0
there was a debate
38:10.0
of the word terror.
38:12.0
Even that is divisive.
38:14.0
Even the two-state solution
38:16.0
is no longer viable
38:22.0
Because Hamas has rejected it.
38:26.0
And Pata is so weak.
38:28.0
Yeah, they're not in a position
38:29.0
to even negotiate.
38:31.0
To be of significance.
38:32.0
So the two-state solution
38:35.0
was rejected equally.
38:37.0
And even many Palestinians
38:42.0
called Arafat a traitor
38:46.0
two-state solution.
38:48.0
So I don't know...
38:50.0
The whole Oslo Accords
38:52.0
Actually, yesterday...
38:53.0
What is your framework?
38:54.0
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
38:55.0
What is your framework
38:58.0
to start the talks?
39:00.0
That's what you can't find
39:02.0
in the two forums
39:05.0
these past few days.
39:07.0
I was also part of
39:10.0
on the Progressive Alliance.
39:12.0
It's also very difficult
39:14.0
because the Progressive Alliance
39:16.0
has two members from Israel
39:19.0
and two members from Palestine.
39:25.0
they still don't have a position
39:27.0
in the Progressive Alliance
39:31.0
Yeah, Rona, I think
39:32.0
you and I have correctly discussed
39:35.0
how the left and progressives
39:36.0
have to figure out
39:38.0
how to deal with the 21st century
39:40.0
because I think some people
39:41.0
are still stuck in the 20th century
39:43.0
and what about autism?
39:45.0
Our position is neither-nor.
39:47.0
Two wrongs don't make it right.
39:49.0
So categorically,
39:50.0
we're against deliberate attack
39:53.0
You're Jew, you're Christian,
39:54.0
Muslims, I don't care.
39:55.0
It's wrong, okay?
39:56.0
So I think that's
39:57.0
what you and I are standing.
39:59.0
That's why we can have this conversation
40:00.0
because if your position was different,
40:01.0
we would really fight here.
40:04.0
in a friendly way,
40:05.0
as friendly as I can get.
40:06.0
Although you can see
40:07.0
I'm passionate about this issue
40:09.0
No, but going back to this,
40:11.0
the Philippine government, right?
40:12.0
We have millions of Filipinos
40:15.0
in the Persian Gulf region,
40:17.0
Saudi Arabia, Emirates,
40:19.0
Bahrain, Oman, et cetera.
40:21.0
We have thousands of Filipinos
40:23.0
from Lebanon to Syria,
40:26.0
despite everything, Jordan.
40:32.0
this could spread.
40:34.0
I mean, I'm in Malaysia right now,
40:37.0
the emotions is very strong.
40:39.0
In fact, when I got back to Singapore,
40:41.0
the driver of the taxi
40:45.0
Malaysian-Singaporean.
40:47.0
And he was watching Al Jazeera,
40:49.0
which was showing the bias of the media
40:52.0
And I had to reassure him,
40:53.0
don't worry, I understand,
40:54.0
because he was wondering
40:56.0
I'm the Western guy or something.
40:58.0
I had to reassure him
41:00.0
So I can see how this resonates.
41:03.0
And we had the leader of prayers
41:07.0
in Saudi Arabia, I think Mecca,
41:10.0
who was crying when he was discussed.
41:12.0
I mean, this is a strong emotional issue
41:16.0
for more than a billion Muslims
41:18.0
around the world.
41:19.0
So no matter how friendly governments
41:21.0
in, I don't know, Morocco
41:22.0
or whatever want to be with Israel,
41:24.0
on the streets, tensions are building up.
41:27.0
People are asking for response.
41:29.0
And this is, the more civilians
41:31.0
also die in Gaza,
41:32.0
more than 2,000 already,
41:34.0
based on some reports,
41:35.0
the more they'll be called
41:36.0
for something drastic to be done.
41:40.0
and I'm worried about this situation.
41:41.0
And maritime millions of Filipinos
41:44.0
in the Middle East,
41:45.0
a lot of them in the Arab world, right?
41:46.0
So if this spreads,
41:49.0
let's say Hezbollah joins from the North,
41:51.0
and next thing you know,
41:52.0
in West, in Jordan, the Palestinians,
41:54.0
I mean, half of population of Jordan
41:56.0
are Palestinians, right?
41:57.0
I mean, this can get,
41:59.0
and then there's the West Bank.
42:01.0
this can get really out of control.
42:03.0
I don't want to be panicky about this,
42:04.0
but as someone who understands
42:07.0
has written a book on the region,
42:09.0
this can get out of control.
42:12.0
That's why, Richard,
42:13.0
I'm intensely watching
42:15.0
and observing Hezbollah.
42:17.0
Because Hezbollah...
42:18.0
They're the powerful one.
42:19.0
They're powerful.
42:20.0
Definitely much stronger than Hamas.
42:23.0
More well-armed than Hamas.
42:27.0
I think they even have
42:31.0
Just the homemade ones.
42:32.0
And they beat Israel in 2006.
42:34.0
And they're having skirmishes
42:37.0
And they're so silent.
42:40.0
As if they're preparing for something.
42:42.0
They're more scary.
42:44.0
When they're silent, exactly.
42:48.0
Actually, if they were just saying things,
42:51.0
But when people go silent,
42:53.0
that's where I get scared, right?
42:55.0
Because the Hamas one were silent too
42:56.0
before the horrible things happened.
43:03.0
for my vantage point,
43:05.0
Hezbollah is the trigger
43:06.0
for a bigger Middle East.
43:08.0
It's gonna be a major all around.
43:10.0
Everyone is gonna be involved.
43:11.0
So it's gonna get really, really scary.
43:13.0
And then you could have a situation
43:14.0
whereby governments in Arab world
43:16.0
are gonna stand on one way
43:17.0
but the people are gonna be on the other way.
43:19.0
Then that's also a crazy situation, right?
43:24.0
And we have 3 to 4 million Filipinos
43:27.0
depending on how you count them.
43:29.0
In the Middle East.
43:34.0
And this is also where
43:35.0
our oil and gas comes from.
43:36.0
So if you care about inflation
43:38.0
in the Philippines...
