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Okay here we are, President Marcos Jr. on his nth travel. But in fairness I am with him on this one. I'm not sure about the Grand Prix, I was just in Singapore the other day and medyo half-jokingly na yung mga ipa na regular customer na nila si Bongbong Marcos every year.

I said, don't take that for granted, mas type pa niya siguro yung Monaco kasi Singapore is high level but there's even higher than Singapore. But anyway he's going now to a country which is even wealthier than Singapore and that's letter S also and that's Saudi Arabia.

But obviously Saudi Arabia right now is a very very important country because it's becoming a very active geopolitical player. Not long ago we were hearing about even talks potentially between Saudi Arabia and Israel for normalization which could have become a political earthquake, a geopolitical earthquake.

But all of that is obviously out of the window. Now the last time we talked, Secretary Llamas, it was freshly out of the horrible massacres that even claimed the lives of some of our Kababayans by militant groups who burst into Israel.

But as we talk right now, thousands of civilians have been killed in Gaza, including a lot of children. And words like war crimes are coming out, even inside Israel people are attacking Netanyahu. Suddenly European Union, Norway, Ireland are talking more critically.

So the mood has dramatically changed just in a week because the response to the attacks on Israel last week for many people is not proportionate at all and for some people it has way crossed the line. So you have China, Vietnam, Russia, Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, Brazil, many of these countries coming out and emphasizing the rights of the Palestinian people, the need for a just peace.

So with all of that happening, a part of me is wondering, where is the Philippines? Because obviously the Philippines is close to America, President Marcos met the envoy from Israel, our Kababayans died, many Filipinos are angry, I completely understand that.

My understanding also is that maybe this is time for the Philippines also to listen to the rest of the Global South and look at it from a bigger picture, which is if we want to protect the interests of OFWs, if we want to be one of the pillars of the Global South, we have to have a balanced approach, which is beyond just tit for tat, but looks at a just lasting solution to the Palestine-Arab-Israeli conflict.

My sense is Sana, President Marcos Jr. will step up the diplomatic game as he goes to Riyadh because his father, you and I are not fans of Marcos Sr. when it comes to human rights and economy, but his father was a Global South leader.

If you look at his speeches in the Afro-Asia summits, he was one of the founders of ASEAN. I was just talking to my Singaporean friends the other day, and you know what my Singaporean friends were telling me, Ronald? They were saying, for a long time, we Singaporeans had to punch well above our weight because our companions are a bit heavy.

But now, as Indonesia comes into form, becomes a major power, is speaking out, and they're hoping Philippines also steps up because Singapore is also going through its transition right now. There could be a new leader, new prime minister soon.

So, parang sinasabi nila, huwag na kayo masyadong umasa sa amin. Maliit lang kami ng bansa. We're just a city-state. We cannot carry the water. So actually, they feel embarrassed when everyone is expecting Singapore.

So, he was asking me, kamusta naman kayo dyan sa Pilipinas? And I was saying, actually, in theory, Marcos Jr. could continue his father's legacy on one thing good, and that one thing good is on foreign policy, including it on leadership within the Global South.

So, Ronald, I mean, this is not the conversation you usually hear in Philippines, right? I mean, this is something very different. This is a very global Filipino way of thinking about it. So, I wanted to get your point of view on this.

Well, I was able to visit Israel and Palestine several times as a guest of the former Prime Minister Shimon Peres, which was the leader of the Labor Party of Israel, and as a guest of HATA, the party of Yasser Arafat.

In West Bank, where there is no Hamas, just to be clear, because people think Hamas, Hamas is everywhere. Hamas is just in Gaza.

There's a lot of different groups in Palestine.

Exactly. People forget. Everyone says Hamas, Hamas.

So, I was there several times. I even met Arafat in Lisbon in 1999. So, may konti akong insights dun sa nangyayari doon, even way before the present dynamics.

Yesterday, I attended a forum about the issue of Gaza, organized by Centro, a trade union center. Ang speaker nila ay si Marie ng Friedrich Ebert Stiftung, the new resident, who lived and worked in Israel for several years.

Talagang hirap eh. Hirap na...

Una, this is historical. And to a great extent, it's not directly the fault of the Israelis and the Palestinians.

It's about old colonizers, like the British, which arbitrarily divided the Middle East into unsustainable countries, which to a great extent are the roots of the present crisis, the present conflicts in most of the Middle East right now.

Let's just be clear. So, the British messed it up big time, just like the whole India-Pakistan, but also the Holocaust with Nazi Germany. So, Europe has a lot of historical responsibility for this mess that our Jewish and Muslim and Christian brothers...

Because they're Palestinians or Christians, stupid people forget, right? So, in a way, this is a kind of... Everyone is a victim of the colonial legacy also here, and the horrible Holocaust that happened under Nazi Germany.

So, we have to be clear about, first of all, that because people think this is an ancient war between Muslims and Jews. That's not true.

This is a product of Western colonization and Nazi Germany Holocaust. This is why we're in this very difficult situation right now.

Yes, and we have to understand that Christianity, Islam, Judaism, all came from the Abrahamic religion or culture, whatever we call it.

So, historically, spiritually, they're not supposed to be antagonistic to each other, but was really complicated because of the history, because of the politics, because of the colonizers in the past.

So, it's not a black and white issue. That is why, even in this present war, it's hard to navigate it, to create a common position, for example, like us progressives.

Even progressive groups around the world are debating intensely about this. Even your school, Harvard, is debating about this intensely.

I don't see a proper positioning. Let's not forget, even prime ministers in Israel are being assassinated by right-wing political forces in Israel.

So, you can't say that Israel is a monolithic country with a clear anti-Palestinian sentiment. And second, it became complicated for us because we have 50,000 to 100,000 Filipino overseas workers there.

Now, in varying degrees, they are very welcome to the Israelis, but the Palestinians are a bit angry for allegedly taking their jobs when they were fired from their jobs.

So, complications are increasing for us Filipinos, not only between Palestine and Israel. I think definitely we have to condemn the attack of Hamas on civilian populations, the inhumanity done to babies.

There's no debate, right? We're against any discriminatory, deliberate violence against civilians. I think there's no debate about that, right? Just to be clear.

With us. But even some of our members in the progressive movement here, they've never mentioned the attack of Hamas on kibuts, on the concert. Everything here is the fault of Israel.

Some of the friends...

Our countrymen are dead. Our countrymen are dead. We cannot, you know what I'm saying?

Some of the friends, I won't mention them. I won't mention them because they are our friends.

Political organizations here, if you will read their statement, there's no mention of the attack. No mention of the barbarity done to the women, to the children, to the babies. There's nothing like that.

At the same time, some of our friends are like Israel is the only victim. Israel is the only victim.

I mean like Palestinian lives are not equal human life. Like if when I say something about Palestinian children and all, suddenly they go away. And my point is like, it's wrong to point out that Palestinians are also human beings.

When I was there, I saw firsthand how Palestinians were treated in the wall, when they entered the wall.

This is West Bank, right? This is West Bank, not Gaza.

Yes, yes.

Hamas done. Just to be clear.

Yes, yes.

Exactly.

Meron din, but not that big. Meron din. Yung collective punishment sa Gaza, tsaka sa West Bank, yung pag merong isa na na-involve sa attack on Israel, buong pamilya i-evict at wawa sa akin yung bahay.

That is what is happening now in Gaza. That is collective punishment on a bigger scale. Kaya very delicate yung positioning. I think we have to condemn Hamas.

But we also have to criticize and condemn yung ginagawa ngayon ng Israel dun sa civilian population ng Gaza.

There was even this very tragic story of one family na lakinig dun sa call for evacuation ng Israel. Pumunta sila allegedly sa safe area at namatay yung buong pamilya, 20 of them.

One big family because they obeyed Israel to evacuate. They did. At nung pumunta sila sa allegedly safe zone, all of them died.

You mean from north to south, right?

Yeah, yeah. So ito dapat talaga i-document. Ito dapat talaga isa-isa yan dahil it's not a simple issue. It is collective punishment on a grander scale.

And you have our ex-president saying that Netanyahu should transform Gaza into the biggest cemetery in the world. Did you hear that?

Yes, that's why I missed his other statement on West Philippine Sea. Kasi parang I was so shocked. I mean not shocked.

Shocked in a sense that, I mean isn't this the president who's supposed to talk about Muslim-Christian unity?

Yes, but he's a psychopath.

He's the first moral president. That just tells you this guy was not fit to be the president.

He's not fit to be the president. I'm sorry. He's not fit to be the president but the mistake happened. What can we do?

But sana we learn our lessons. It just tells you how out of touch he is for someone who's supposed to be anti-West and all of that.

Look at statements of his own idols or books. China's position is absolutely clear. Let me read what China has said on this.

I just had an article on that. Kasi siguro si tatay di kong sana nag-clear siya doon sa mga amo niya bago siya nagsalita kasi nagkakalat-kalat na naman siya dito.

I mean in China, very clear sila na they're friends of both Palestine and Israel but the root cause of the problem should not be forgotten.

This is both Wang Yi, both their foreign minister and also yung special envoy nila. I'm just trying to bring out the exact quote.

Para lang si tatay mukhang hindi nag-release. Ito, ito. Ito yung sinabi ni Zhai Jun who's the Chinese special envoy on the Middle East.

Ito yung sinabi niya. As a friend to both Israel and Palestine, what we hope to see is the two countries living together in peace.

The key to achieving that lies in the realization of the two-state solution and establishment of independent state of Palestine.

More interestingly is Chinese Wang Yi who had a conversation with the Saudi Arabian counterpart just last week

and he said, China believes that the historical injustices against Palestine have lasted for more than half a century and cannot go on.

Accordingly he said, China stands ready to work with Saudi Arabian Arab countries to continue supporting the Palestinians just cause of restoring their national rights.

Mukhang yung kanilang bata sa Pilipinas ay hindi updated doon sa position ng amo.

So that's how out of touch he is because China right now is the one championing the rights of the Palestinian people.

Yan yung bata nila, yung barangay chairman dyan kung ano-ano pinagsasabing ng kapwa dyan.

At least pumayag na ibigay yung tubig sa China. Huwag lang yung isda.

Medyo seryosa pa tayo Ronald. Balikan natin yan. I mean I just...

Speaking of collective punishment, it's like dahil ganito yung presidente mo dati, dahil digong presidente mo, lahat tayo papunish ng mundo.

You see that's how stupid collective punishment can be. Because may 16 million na bumoto kay Digong, yung 18 million na hindi bumoto are naturally responsible for everything that Tatay does.

That's collective punishment, right? That's the logic how it operates.

At tingin ko Richard what we can do, we can unite most of the progressive movement. Halimbawa on the issue of a humanitarian corridor.

Tingin ko kahapon may debate na sa paggamit ng salitang terror. Even that is divisive.

Even the two-state solution is no longer viable as a framework. Dahil Hamas has rejected and Pata is so weak to be of significance.

So medyo yung two-state solution na pareho nang nireject. Even marami sa Palestinian ay tinawag na traitor si Arafat because of that two-state solution.

Kaya hindi ko alam kung ano yung framework. Ano yung framework for at least to start the talks?

Yun yung hindi mahanap dun sa dalawang forum na inattendan ko these past few days.

Kasama rin ako sa discussion sa Progressive Alliance. Hirap na hirap din because the Progressive Alliance have two members from Israel and two members from Palestine.

Kaya hindi sila hanggang ngayon walang position ang Progressive Alliance about this.

Rona, I think you and I have correctly discussed how the left and progressives have to figure out how to deal with the 21st century.

Because I think some people are still stuck in the 20th century and what about ism? Our position is neither nor. Wrongs don't make it right.

So categorically we're against deliberate attack on any civilian. You're Jew, you're Christian, Muslims, I don't care. It's wrong.

So I think that's what you and I are standing. That's why we can have this conversation because if your position was different, mag-ahoy talaga tayo dito.

But friendly, in a friendly way, as friendly as I can get. Although you can see I'm passionate about this issue on many levels.

But going back to this, let's talk about the Philippine government. We have millions of Filipinos in the Persian Gulf region, Saudi Arabia, Emirates, Bahrain, Oman, etc.

We have thousands of Filipinos from Lebanon to Syria, despite everything, Jordan. And the fear is this could spread.

I'm in Malaysia right now, Ronald. The emotions are very strong. In fact, when I went back to Singapore, the driver of the taxi was Malaysian-Singaporean.

And he was watching Al Jazeera, which was showing the bias of the media and all of that. And I had to reassure him, don't worry, I understand.

He was wondering if I'm a Western guy. I reassured him I'm not Western. So I can see how this resonates.

And we had the leader of prayers in Saudi Arabia, I think Mecca, who was crying when he was discussed.

I mean, this is a strong emotional issue for more than a billion Muslims around the world.

So no matter how friendly governments in, I don't know, Morocco or whatever want to be with Israel, on the streets, tensions are building up.

People are asking for a response. And the more civilians also die in Gaza, more than 2,000 already based on some reports,

the more they'll be called for something drastic to be done. And I'm worried. And I'm worried about the situation.

And there are millions of Filipinos in the Middle East, a lot of them in the Arab world.

So if this spreads, let's say Hezbollah joins from the north, and next thing you know, in West, in Jordan, the Palestinians,

I mean, half of the population of Jordan are Palestinians, right? And then there's the West Bank.

I mean, my God, this can get really out of control. I don't want to be panicky about this.

But as someone who understands the Middle East, has written a book on the region, follows it, this can get out of control.

So that's why, Richard, I'm intensely watching and observing Hezbollah.

Because Hezbollah is definitely much stronger than Hamas, more well-armed than Hamas, more rockets.

I think they even have real missiles, not just the homemade ones.

And they met Israel in 2006.

And they're having skirmishes with Israel. And they're so silent, as if they're preparing for something.

They're more scary if they're silent.

When they're silent, exactly. Like, actually, if they were just saying things, like, okay.

But when people go silent, that's where I get scared, right?

Because the Hamas one were silent, too, before the...

Yes, yes. Too silent.

That's why, for my vantage point, Hezbollah is the trigger for a bigger Middle East country.

Yeah, it's going to be major all around. Everyone is going to be involved.

So it's going to get really, really scary.

And then you have the situation whereby governments in Arab world are going to stand on one way,

but the people are going to be on the other way.

Then that's also a crazy situation, right?

And we have 3 to 4 million Filipinos, depending on how you count them, in the Middle East.

Exactly. And this is also where our oil and gas comes from.

So if you care about inflation in the Philippines, God forbid, something happens there.

And if we complain about inflation, imagine how worse it could get if things go down there.

So that's why the argument, and that's why we're having this episode, Ronald,

is it's time for the Philippines to step up and work with Indonesia, with Saudi Arabia,

with China, with Brazil, etc.

Other countries who are saying, hey, hey, it's not about taking sides.

Of course, we should be against any act of terrorism.

But this is also about pushing, pushing for a lasting, just solution to this problem.

I think the Philippines has to be more forthcoming about that.

Are you hearing something to that effect? Because for me, so far, it's mostly about...

Last night, I was with Secretary Manalo on the Czech National Day.

Right, right, right.

But they don't seem to have a consolidated position here.

I don't know who our Middle East expert is in the DFA.

Ben Surto, I think, is now our ambassador to Turkey.

Neil Imperial is no longer our ambassador to Israel.

He's moving to Italy.

So I don't know who the new people assigned there are.

But I don't know a Middle East expert in the DFA.

Well, we don't have a clear China expert in the DFA.

But someone who can work with other countries.

They're the upcoming visit to Saudi Arabia, the ASEAN Arab side, right?

So there'll be Malaysia, there'll be Indonesia there, who have a very strong stance against what's happening in Gaza.

We have to work with these countries.

We have to work with Singapore, Thailand, which also has many of their own version of OFWs.

They have also oversees Taiwan.

We have to work with fellow countries there.

That's my point, not only about Arab expertise or Middle East expertise.

This is really called diplomacy, leadership.

For a long time, we are concerned for our OFWs.

But you cannot be concerned with our OFWs in a vacuum, right?

You have to understand the context they are living in.

For example, when I went to Israel and Palestine, I didn't know that we have 50,000 to 100,000 Filipinos there.

So I have relatives there.

The Palestinians I talked to were a bit angry because many of them were fired from their jobs because they see them as terrorists.

Many of them were replaced by Filipinos.

I want to make this clear.

The jobs that the Filipinos got were not only the jobs of the Palestinians.

For example, domestic helpers.

Those are not the jobs of the Palestinians.

But the image, it's about image.

The image is that we took their jobs.

And even if we only took a few thousand.

Those who came to the Palestinians, we took their jobs.

That's why our presence in Israel is blown out of proportion.

Our presence in the West Bank or Gaza, I think 140, 137.

137 that were evacuated through the Gaza border.

Yes.

But in Israel, there are many.

50,000, right?

The legal, right?

But the other 50,000.

Officially 29.

So there.

You're right.

Because I noticed this.

I think we're about to end this episode.

I want to rest now.

The thing is, when it comes to civil society, when it comes to conferences.

You know that Filipinos have an advantage, right?

We're proud.

We're proud of our Filipino-Indians, usually.

But our government is not like that.

I mean, the ones in the DFA are good.

But I think generally, we lack that kind of pizazz.

That kind of panache.

In civil society meetings internationally, the Filipinos are always front and center.

The Filipinos are great.

But when it comes to international diplomacy, we're very diffident, I think, sometimes.

Even if our diplomats are really great.

I know them personally.

A lot of them.

We have Yuseg de Vega.

He's a fantastic, brilliant guy.

Weird.

Yeah, I mean.

She's fantastic.

But I think generally, because we're a bit tight.

Because of our vulnerabilities and all.

And maybe because there's not enough signal from above.

From the President and all.

We're a bit too cautious, I think.

I mean, the DFA is strong in the West Philippine Sea, which is good.

But I think it has to go beyond that.

We are the 13th largest country by population, right?

So, we should act as the top 15 countries in the world.

And we should be one of the top 10 global South leaders, for that matter.

And one of the top 3 leaders in ASEAN.

Along with Indonesia and Singapore.

Something like that, right?

I mean, this should come natural to us, right?

And for some reason, we're always seen as America's friends in Asia.

That's the American side.

So, whatever the American side is, that's their side.

I think we have to push back against that.

Because that's not helpful.

And it's creating unnecessary tension or dismissiveness.

As a Filipino, I can feel that when I say,

Of course, you're a pro-American guy.

They're going to tell that to me because they know I'm very critical about the US.

But they can say,

Richard, but you're unique, right?

I always tend to get that.

So, my sense is we have to push that.

No, Ronald?

Yeah.

I'll ask you, Richard.

What do you mean by Global South?

Because in a multipolar world, even the Global South appears multipolar.

For example, China is proud that Brazil is in their ambit.

I think that's not totally true.

In terms of trade, perhaps, yes.

In terms of exports or imports of soybean from Brazil, I think that's true.

The main beneficiary of the BRI in Latin America is Brazil.

But still, Brazil won't agree to the kind of political system in China.

They won't agree to the issues in the South China Sea, the West Philippine Sea.

So, it's not that simple.

South Africa is close to Russia.

Because during apartheid, most of them were hiding in Russia.

Most of them were being supported by Russia.

But in terms of political system, I think they're very far away from the autocratic Russian political system.

India is close to Russia like China.

But definitely, India is very critical of China.

So, you cannot call them as part and parcel of the Global South.

So, it's not that accurate when we say that the Global South is like this.

The Global South is closer to China and Russia.

Farther from the West.

Thank you for that.

But as you can see, I anticipated that.

So, as I wrote in my op-ed today in the Philippine Daily Inquirer,

I said, in fairness, both concepts of the West and Global South can be at times misleading.

Thanks to the intense diversity of views and interests, especially in the developing world.

Not to mention, are East Asian nations such as Japan, Western?

Or check, for instance, Ireland and Norway.

Very different take on the recent conflict in the Middle East and former critical of what's happening in Gaza.

Nevertheless, my argument here is, there are some least common denominators that Global South countries share.

The same way that there are least common denominators that the so-called West share.

I mean, the least common denominator for the West is that they have to be liberal democratic societies.

So, even when they have an Orban or Trump, try to squeeze those guys in and put those pictures of Trump on one side, the rest of G7 on the other.

So, there are some least common denominators in the Global South.

It's not true that we're with China.

A lot of us were very critical of Russia.

But at the same time, I think in the Global South, one thing that we all have in common is that, since we are still poor and developing countries,

we're much more cautious about picking fights or joining sanctions regimes.

That's why very few Asian countries joined the sanctions regimes, again Russia, even though they didn't like what happened to Ukraine.

And at the same time, let me be very clear about this, Ronald.

I mean, let's be honest.

Whether you're Brazilian, Filipino, I sense this.

When I'm in a conference, when our Western counterparts, when I say West, mostly Anglo-America, really, right?

A little bit with Germany and France.

So, Norwegians, Irish, quite different, right?

Sometimes when they say something, we tend to look at others in a sense that, for instance, they talk about rules-based order.

It's like, whose rules?

Before Ukraine, there were wars in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq.

Didn't that count?

But suddenly, after Ukraine is invaded, they suddenly talk about the rules-based order.

And then there's also this idea of, it's like, when some person of Caucasian background, something happens to them, the coverage is all over the place.

But have you noticed, Ronald, how much coverage was given to the Filipinos who were massacred in Israel, right?

Or Thai citizens.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, there's so much systemic prejudice and structural prejudice there that it's hard not to notice if you're from Brazil, South Africa, Philippines, or even Singapore of this world.

If you're not part of the quote-unquote West.

So much so that I think even Japan, which is supposed to be part of G7, they also sometimes feel they're not fully Western.

And that's why they also have a different...

You get what I'm saying?

Like, there's certain least common denominators, which I think, whether you're Chinese, whether you're Brazilian, whether you're Filipino, can agree upon because of our colonial history.

Because of some things that we experienced that your average, I don't know, British, American, or German doesn't experience.

Do you get what I'm saying?

And then they have these certain narratives that I think is very Eurocentric and tends to forget what...

Even rules-based order.

How can you talk about rules-based order when millions died in Iraq and Afghanistan?

And Libya, look at the mess that happened there.

So, I think when I say global South, there is some common denominator.

It's like a Venn diagram.

You're right.

There's so much diversity.

I said that.

There are issues where we are totally against China, right?

And Brazil is against Russia.

But if you draw a Venn diagram, there is some significant degree of overlap in our experiences and sense of vulnerabilities that I think we can bring together.

And I think if you look, as I said, Turkey, Brazil, India, China, I can go on and on.

Most of these countries, all of them were clear.

There has to be a just peace solution to this, that you shouldn't also forget the lives and the rights of Palestinians.

You don't see that balance in the statement of many Western countries with the exception of Norway, Ireland, or Japan, for instance, right?

So, this is what I'm talking about.

So, you're absolutely right.

It doesn't mean we're monolithic.

It doesn't mean we have 100% overlap.

China is our rival, if not enemy, on the West Philippine Sea.

But in a way, we're all developing countries with certain very dark traumatic experiences.

And when you go to the U.S., suddenly all of us are Asians worrying about anti-Asian racism, for instance, right?

You get what I'm saying?

So, I'm talking about those common denominators where we can work together while acknowledging we're not on the same page 100% of the time.

We're not.

We're definitely not.

So, that's the context of the global South I'm talking about.

But Ronald, I mean, don't you also feel it?

I mean, you have lived a little bit longer than me so far on Earth, right?

So, I mean, don't you also sense that the world is changing a little bit?

My sense is during my dad's time, if you're not white or from the West, you will feel it more that you're a second-class citizen in the world.

Nowadays, it's cooler to be Asian, right?

I mean, even if some of us could pass as half-white or, you know, you'd rather say you're Asian because this is dynamism.

This is where history is happening.

Are you feeling that?

Have you noticed that, Ronald?

Partly.

Partly.

Because, as you said, the least common denominator here in the global South is our common history under colonialism.

That's the minimum least common denominator.

Ako lang, minsan nag-react ako sa reductionism na itong BRICS is the global South.

Itong BRI, na ngayon ay nag-gather sa Beijing, this is the global South.

Minsan doon ako nag-react.

Not you, ah.

Yung ibang mga groups is calling them…

Yung bakery forum.

Yung bakery forum, BRICS.

Kaya, tawag nila this is the new global South.

Doon ako nag-react.

Because there's nothing global South-y about this.

About this, no?

Ayun yung…

Kaya, sa akin…

It's very China Empire thing.

It's a China Empire thing.

Oo.

So, yun yung…

No, I completely agree with you, Ken.

I'm very…

So, obviously, on West Philippines issue, we're going to have many disagreements with fellow developing countries who are closer to China than us, right?

So, I completely agree with you.

We're not 100% on the same board.

But, yes, our past colonial experience, our struggles with structural prejudice, with being treated as second-class citizens of this world for so long.

I'm not saying it's fault of every, I don't know, Western person.

But this is legacy of centuries of colonialism.

But now, suddenly, if you're from India, you're from Brazil, you're from Turkey, and hopefully from Philippines, et cetera, you're going to feel that, hey, maybe we have a little bit more of a voice.

Because most of the institutions that we see today, IMF, World Bank, whatever, we didn't have much of a say, right, in their establishment.

They were really products of Western organ.

So, for a very long time, so-called West, especially Anglo-America or the Anglo-Saxon world, had monopoly on global governance.

I think that's going away.

Now, that doesn't mean we'll jump to the Chinese boat.

But to a certain degree, the rise of China has created a new reboot, reset.

And I think in this reset, there's a room for us to carve out some voice.

Because I just feel we tried to have that voice when we had the Carlos P. Romulus of the world.

But, suddenly, I'm going to Teddy Boy Locsin.

I'm going to digress.

But, you know what I'm saying, we don't need overcompensating, whatever type of people to have that voice.

I think we can have that voice by just acknowledging that the world is in transition.

It doesn't mean that Asia will be the next superpower necessarily.

But it's that Asia should not necessarily be a second class or just second fiddle.

Yun lang sinasabi ko dito, Ronald.

But I perfectly agree.

I don't like what others are doing.

In fact, that's the reason why Indonesia did not join BRICS.

Indonesia was invited to the BRICS class.

They turned it down because they said, oh, that's increasing the China club.

And no, we want to join the OECD, which is the club of the people.

But you're absolutely right.

And for me, I like the Indonesia way of doing things.

And I think Indonesia could be kind of a role model for us because of so many similarities we have with them.

In spite of some differences because we are a U.S. treaty ally.

Even if India is in the BRICS, I think the emerging dynamic in the world now with the waning American superpower,

I think in the near future, it could be India and China.

Yeah, competing for influence here.

Yeah, I mean, just on a very, how should I, parang non-threatening.

I mean, so since last year, I've been traveling.

You know, the tourists I see more, they're Indians, middle class Indians.

You know, in designer clothes.

India is the new superpower in many ways.

They're not rich yet.

Yeah.

Problems.

But they're a huge country and they're going to flex their muscles.

So this century is going to look very different from what we used to be when a tiny Belgium or Switzerland could walk around as if they're a superpower.

That's not going to happen.

It's going to be China, India, Brazil, Saudi, Turkey.

And hopefully the Philippines can find some sort of space there.

I know we're getting a little bit ahead of ourselves, perhaps, but I don't know.

This is what I like.

I mean, I think someone has to start this conversation.

I mean, I'm very proud of getting this discussion on industrial policy a little bit sexier because I don't think anyone was talking about industrial policy.

And now I'm also in this kind of global South Philippine voice, but not a China-dominated, not a bakery forum kind of.

More of a reasonable, you know, para sa bayan kind of global South.

Marami salamat, Ronald.

Thank you so much.

Salamat, Richard.

This was really, really fruitful.

I think folks are enjoying.

Marami na nagte-trash talk na.

Pero sabi nga naman sa akin, bad ka, Ronald, bad ka.

Keep it up.

I'm evil.

I'm not only bad, I'm evil.

Monster nga, di ba?

Especially with the jet ski.

And the jet ski, yeah, yeah.

Wala akong sabi diyan.

Si Ronald diyan.

Please don't take it on.

But my suggestion is maybe jet ski is an option for the vice president if he wants to push back against the…

Salamat.

God bless you.

Marami salamat.

Enjoy.

Enjoy.