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Something close to my heart. It may not necessarily seem as the sexiest conversation,

but we want to talk about development strategy down the road.

And one of the persons that I truly respect, a progressive person,

a person who has been writing a lot on Philippine economy, our developmental crisis,

someone who's progressive, of course, in every sense of the word, is, of course, Sunny Africa.

Thank you very much, Sunny Africa, Executive Director of IBAN Foundation for joining us today, sir.

Hey, Richard. Thanks for the invitation. Happy to be here. Hope you have something to share.

Pleasure, pleasure. Sorry if my internet is not as good, but as long as the audio comes in, I think we'll be happy about this.

There's a lot to discuss for today, and I think it's very timely to have this kind of discussions.

Now, of course, you and I have had engagements throughout the years, not as direct as today,

but I think you also use the term Duterte-Garks. So both of us thought about it independently.

It's just that I came.

So being credit grabber, I trolled you on that, but all respect, all respect.

I really like the contributions of the IBAN Foundation to economic discussions in the Philippines.

Now, let's first start, Sunny. Who is Sunny Africa? I mean, Tito Boy Abundaway.

Like, who's Sunny Africa? Sino mga mahal niya sa buhay?

But more importantly, what's the IBAN Foundation, and what do you do?

Before we discuss Marcos Economic Food Inflation.

Before we go there, for the purpose of our audience, especially younger audience,

Sunny Africa, a short introduction, maybe.

I'm kind of losing you, but...

Yes, please go ahead. No, no. We got it. Yeah, please go ahead. Yeah.

Yes, Sunny.

Hi.

IBAN, talking about Marcos Economics, IBAN was set up in 1978.

Mm-hmm.

During this...

Our first episode of Really Bad Marcos Economics.

It was set up, very straightforward objective, bring economics down to the people.

Right.

Economic is too important to be left to economists, especially it's too important to be left to our politicians.

So, from the very start in 1978, IBAN was set up to try and explain economic issues to regular people so they can engage.

So, whether it's workers in trade unions, farmers in peasant organizations, urban poor doing their, you know,

demolition struggles, all of that, we, IBAN did feel that economics had to be explained as something that bituki isyo talaga siya.

Beyond the short term, sana even the long term.

So, IBAN has been at it for 45 years.

Middle age, for those who believe in numerology, IBAN's 45 years old.

Then we did a quick check of the average age of the staff, also 45.

Eh, coterminous ba yan? Sorry, Sunny.

Sorry, Sunny. Coterminous ba yan? I don't ask age.

But, it's like, ha ha ha ha ha. Yeah, yeah.

Hindi naman yata.

Hindi naman yata. Okay.

As long as people are, you know, able, willing to do, you know, keep up the fight amid all the difficulties, we're still around.

Also, inviting young progressive economists who want to join IBAN, just, you know, knock on their door.

Yes, go for it.

We'll sort something out. We can do some, we can work together.

Sunny, a little bit about yourself. Of course, your background.

In, in, in development studies, London School of Economics, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, you know, how did you come about in terms of your research and advocacy in the field of development economics or development studies?

Ah, um, ano kaya?

Um, I think as a activist, experiential, um, I had a nice, happy childhood.

Had a nice, happy, um, high school.

High school life.

Also had a nice, happy, oblivious, um, college life.

Um, but I was in, in, in London at the time in LSE.

And what really struck home for me that time was, that was a time that in the mid-1990s in, in, in London.

And it just struck home to me one time after a, you know, nice university night of partying.

Um, a Filipina, about three in the morning when the, um, when the party wound down, she knocked on the door.

Um, with one maleta, said, I'm gonna run away from my employer, but he can't tell I'm running away because she took my passport.

Oh.

Asked me to keep the maleta until she'd run away.

Oh.

Very furtively, she went back up to, um, to her employer, was a Middle Eastern employer.

And, you know, you, you don't think the aftermath of a party, you have a buzz.

And for that to happen, just stuck home, it's kind of weird.

I mean, here I am, studying abroad, having a fairly comfortable life.

Right.

A Filipina.

Filipino.

And then another Filipina in the exact same building I'm in, completely different circumstances.

And I think it was that moment of desperation.

Wow.

Ah, yeah.

It struck home.

Um, I was doing philosophy and economics at the time.

And then I, I shift, I did my master's in development studies.

Um, came home, uh, worked for a year in NEDA.

Saw how, um, I'm not gonna say corrupt.

But I saw how challenging working in the government was for economic development.

Ran away back to the academia for a year.

Tried doing, uh, um, a doctorate.

After two years, realized, why am I studying in London when the battle is in the Philippines?

So, I ended up with my doctorate, started NGO work, and I've been here ever since.

Um, so, Sonny, you're a recovering Konyo in that sense, right?

It's like, and then, I mean, I mean, just, just, just to say this.

I'm saying this with complete self-awareness, just to be clear about it, right?

You can bash my Konyo Tagalog.

But I think you're more legit Konyo.

Ako, probinsya ng Konyo lang ako.

From Baguio.

No, but, but, Sonny, your story is actually as, as unique and, and, and, uh, exceptional as it is.

Uh, it has parallels with a lot of people.

I mean, people like Walden Belio of, you know, a mentor of mine also come, came from privilege, right?

Went to Princeton University, went to United States.

Uh, also, of course, my, my de facto co-host, Ronald Llamas, also came from a quite a comfortable background.

And then he saw the reality of Smoky Mountain, et cetera.

Natauhan.

In fact, our own hero, Rizal, right?

Like, he had a comfortable life in Calamba until his own family ran into trouble with, uh, the frayok, frayerocracy, uh, in, in the Philippines.

So, I think your story, in many ways, uh, you know, exemplifies that, you know, that kind of, uh, middle class or upper class Filipino

that, that was essentially shaken out of their stupor, right?

And then dedicates the rest of their life.

So, so, I, I'm not trying to downplay the uniqueness of your story, but, but it's also very instructive because

we have a lot of people like that.

I mean, I don't want to call it, I don't want to call it noble oblige, right?

But there is a certain degree of noble oblige, perhaps, there.

Now, Sonny, I don't want to go to showbiz and talk about your love life, et cetera.

Let's get down to business.

Um, all right.

Of course, um, folks are free to download yung mga excellent studies by Yvonne Foundation throughout the years,

including authored by Sonny, Africa, and a lot of smart people.

By the way, Sonny, kamag-anak mo yung, ano, di ba, yung debater champion, di ba, si Africa?

Um, yeah, um, uh, nephew and neighbor.

Wow, okay, send my regards.

So, we actually bumped up our cachet here, and our little neighbor, yung katipunan, all these signs came out.

Congratulations, David, Africa.

Like, oh, my God, reflected glory for me.

I know, I know, I know.

I mean, that refraction is always a good thing.

No, I mean, ako and Leloy, of course, we were competitive debaters back in the UP, Athenae, et cetera.

But we never thought there'll be a Filipino will be world champion.

Because, you know, we had to deal with a lot of racism.

And, let's be honest about it, coming from the developing world, uh, you know, we didn't have the right posh accent, blah, blah, blah.

But I'm so glad that, you know, brilliant kids like your nephew have shattered that glass ceiling.

And, of course, they're, they're brilliant themselves, no question about it.

I'm just saying, this, this, it's something emotional for me and Leloy.

Actually, we had the whole episode just about your nephew, right?

And then, then how we feel this is our moment.

Yeah, yeah, believe me or not, all right.

Anyway, digression.

Now, let's go to, forget about their nephew forever.

Let's talk about...

Look for that and pass it to me if I haven't seen it yet.

Sige, I think I'll find it.

Yeah, dun sa episode namin next time.

See, forward ko na lang sa'yo, Sonny, no?

Um, now, Sonny, let's go back to this.

Um, of course, you're, you're, you're great too.

I'm just, you know, I'm just nag-degress lang ako just to, to put things.

I mean, there's something perhaps with your, your extended family.

Hey, teka.

They should, you're super choppy.

I'm sorry.

Um, just get back to me.

No, don't worry about it.

We're still hearing you.

I think as long as we get the audio right, I think that should be fine.

Um, so, Sonny, um, let me put you on speaker and then probably remove my video para faster yan.

Uh, when I, I question you and all.

No, Sonny, let's go back to this.

Um, first of all, what is your assessment of the Marcos Jr. Administration's economic performance so far?

What is the good, if any, what is the bad, and what is the ugly?

I think that's a good framework.

The good, the bad, and the ugly, if we can put it that way.

Oh, well, I'm so sorry.

I'm a little bit nasty.

I mean, I forgot to look at things.

Ah, there's nothing good.

Okay.

It's, it's, it's tough, you know.

I mean, I have this, always had this weird, um, irritation.

People trying to find the good in something when it's fundamentally bad.

I mean, it's like saying, oh, don't worry about Hitler.

You know, he loved dogs.

He was so nice to his, um, his brothers.

Uy, grabe ka naman.

Hitler ka agad.

I mean, nag-escalate ka agad.

Di man lang Bolsonaro.

Di di man lang.

Eh, eh, eh, eh.

Governing and economic policy spans so much of the economy.

Yeah, yeah.

So, parang, kung pipilitin mo to find something good,

may meron naman.

So, alimbawa right now, um, in the middle of all these, um, social problems,

okay, that one million na cash subsidies binibigay, um, for informal workers,

of course, that's good.

Yeah, but if you're talking about roughly 20 million families,

um, who are like poverty line or below,

or like sort of, well, are poverty line and vulnerable,

parang, why make a big thing out of that good, that tiny good thing?

So, parang, tingin ko sorry, ah.

I mean, not to be nasty, but, um, to put it into context,

we can always find good in everything.

Right, parang your point is, ah, huwag natin pilitin.

But I think the economy is really, is downwards.

It's not actually even flat.

It's not actually going downwards.

Right now, that moment to find something good,

it's, yeah, I think it's kind of pandering to people, um,

trying to sort of find some justification in the way things are.

And right now, feeling ko mag-focus tayo dun sa bad.

And the ugly.

Kasi there's really so much to change.

I think the pinaka-pinaka bad is the fact that in terms of outcomes,

it doesn't make sense that after all these, you know, hype growth and hype foreign investment,

diba, biggest foreign investment under, under Tatay, I think in 2021,

parang 11 trillion dollars.

Right, right.

Wow, it's like a record for the Philippines.

Parang despite all the rapid growth, despite all the foreign investment,

despite all the claims na we're sort of fixing our competitiveness,

why are roughly 7 or 8 out of 10 Filipino families no savings

or self-declaring themselves poor or borderline poor?

So parang that's such a big bad.

This is the SWEA survey, right?

I think in our economist's faces, stop fighting.

Right, right.

Huwag natin pilitin, essentially, yung ano, diba?

Huwag natin pilitin.

How bad things are.

Huwag natin self-reflection eh.

Despite 14 years of all these, you know, gloating about

rising star in Asia, rapid economic growth,

well-respected central bankers and finance ministers.

Rising tiger economy.

Parang it is kind of ugly that they're not accepting the fact that

our industry or manufacturing sector is smallest since the 1940s.

They're not accepting that all this foreign investment makes for good headline.

A profit of the Philippine economy.

So I think the ugliness comes from parang kulang na self-reflection.

Saya nga eh.

I mean, we're gonna keep going from administration to administration

and the economy's gonna keep on sasad-sad talaga siya.

If there's no acceptance that may problem talaga tayo.

And it's serious.

It's really super serious talaga.

So what you're saying is huwag natin pilitin na there's any good if there's not a good.

Ako naman.

Hindi naman totally sarcastic.

At least I'm glad that we don't have an inflation of 80% like Turkey and Argentina.

I'm glad that we're still the fastest growing in ASEAN

although of course our per capita is so low that growing at 6% is whatever.

We should be growing at 10%.

I'm just saying as someone who always studies other developing countries of the world.

I've been in the Middle East.

I've been in other parts of the world.

At least we're not as bad as them.

But you're right.

That doesn't make it good.

But I don't know.

It's better than nothing.

Let's stop.

I can sort of pick up a few better than bad things.

Sama ka.

Inflation, good.

We don't have double-digit inflation.

But also, second highest inflation for the year in Southeast Asia.

Yes.

I agree with you.

I agree.

Yung better than bad, it's gonna be stretching it to call it good eh.

Para yung good, kailangan may tanaw ka na maganda talaga.

And it's headed towards something better.

But yung good natin is, it's just not as bad as others.

So, Sonny, how ugly is the...

Sino bad mood ako.

I've been in traffic for so long.

I know, I know, Sonny.

Okay.

Ganito na, Sonny.

You have to understand also where I'm coming from.

Kasi ako, my philosophy of political mobilization is that there should always be a philosophy of hope.

And my fear is if you do not talk about anything good no matter how little, baka maging sinigal na lang tao and they switch out.

Do you get where I'm coming from?

Because, you know, as someone who...

Do you get what I'm saying?

So, actually, this is not cynical.

I'm just saying, before you get people interested in political activism, you have to give them a sense of reasonable hope.

Now, we can debate about what is a reasonable hope.

But my point is, if you say the picture is all dark and dreary, ang hirap mag-mobilize ng tao.

People just switch off.

Sonny, I can tell you confidently because I'm very active online, social media, mainstream media.

And napansin ko, if toxic ang tingin ng tao sa politika, they're just gonna leave it.

And I think that's bad.

Because it's just gonna leave the field to the baddies.

The baddies want people to lose hope.

Because when people are hopeless, they can become enslaved.

That's my reading of it, Sonny.

So, I hope you see where I'm coming from.

But absolutely, you know me, I'm very realistic.

I mean, goodness.

I mean, I have all...

You know, I always compare Philippines with other developing countries.

Hindi ako nagpipiling na walang ganyan sa States, walang ganyan sa Singapore.

I always say like, walang ganyan sa Thailand, walang ganyan sa Vietnam, walang ganyan sa Argentina or Turkey.

I'm that kind of person.

Now, Sonny, let's get...

And you know what?

I'll sing it lang.

Go ahead.

Ang good kasi, I'm not gonna find it in the government's current economic policies.

Kasi they're repeating the same mistakes that have been repeated

for literally every development plan since the Bayster Plan, ng Bruce Plan, nung late 1940.

Sa akin, I'd look for the good outside of the official development plans,

outside of the official technocracy.

I'd look for it in the fact that, halimbawa ikaw, nagtatanong ka.

And it's a big thing for me.

I mean, for the longest time, industrialization is a dumb phone.

Since the 1990s, I mean, the last president even talked about industrialization was President Ramos.

Diba?

Exactly.

Since then, from Estrada and Gloria onwards, it was about, yeah, let's open up and then

whatever the market decides is our economic structure, that's it.

So I can...

For me, that's a good thing.

But it's not coming from government.

And to be clear, we do talk to a few technocrats within government.

Right.

But they're so, not cynical, but they've been so bludgeoned by the fact that it's not in

their career interest to talk about industrial...

Yeah.

See.

It's not in their career interest to break this hegemony of medieval thinking.

So they're not speaking.

But second, the good won't be in the official structures.

I think it comes from outside, from people like you, intellectuals, public intellectuals

talking about it.

It comes from they're still, despite all the attacks against progressives, there are still

organizations talking about industrialization, talking about economic reforms.

There are still, despite the political attacks, a few precious few politicians who are still

talking about industrialization.

There are still a few politicians trying to sort of, you know, create a bulwark against

neoliberalism.

And then, bring things forward.

That's kind of good.

But when you asked earlier about economic policy, I can't believe it.

I mean, even their housekeeping is not very good.

Yeah.

And the good they're doing, it's tokenistic.

It's like part of the whole Marcus drama of feel-good properties to a handful of UV operators

and drivers, a handful of low-income families, a handful of farmers.

Parang kung sabihin namin good yan, parang na-legitimize pa yung feel-good performative tokenistic

economic reforms sila.

So yeah, I don't want to be cynical in that sense.

Pero in terms of hope, hopefulness na kami.

People are asking what can be done.

People are organizing.

They're being attacked and surviving those attacks.

I think that's the raw matter for development.

People have to start.

It's a social movement.

All economic change naman is a question of mass mobilization and intellectuals.

Right.

I mean, first of all, let me say, you have no idea.

I mean, there are even Wall Street folks who have been listening to some of my podcasts

on industrial policy and all.

So you never know who's listening to you, right?

We're hoping the right people will listen in one way or another.

But you're right.

Ako naman, kasi ganitong basa ko dito, Sonny.

The reason we're growing at 6% has nothing to do with the supposed intelligence of our administration.

It's because of the hardworking field.

Hardworking Filipino people.

It's because of all the, you know.

So that for me is good because we have hardworking people, you know, who are sacrificing blood

and sweat to make sure na the country as a whole moves forward.

That for me is a good thing.

That our Kababayans at least have that room for contribution to economic growth.

That our Kababayans are the kind of, have the kind of work ethic and education.

So for me, that's a good thing.

Again, you're right.

We shouldn't credit the government for that.

But at least I'm also going to credit the government for not totally getting in the way of that.

I mean, we're growing in spite of our government.

But, you know, I know a lot of bad governments around the world doing crazy mumbo-jumbo economics.

I mean, look at, for instance, Rajat Tayyip Erdogan in Turkey, right?

Playing mumbo-jumbo games with interest rates and all of that.

Thankfully, we don't have at least those kind of leaders.

So, again, I agree with you in terms of making sure you don't give credit to those who don't deserve it.

But I'm just saying, you know, there's always a silver lining there.

And I'm not forcing it in this kind of pathetic, self-satisfied, liberal, complacent way.

No.

We have to give credit to the Filipino people.

All of the OFWs and Pinoys.

I mean, Sonny, you're not the only one who has come across Filipinos with horrible circumstances abroad.

I worked in the Philippine Overseas Workers Affairs Committee back in the day, legislature.

We had to deal with very, very difficult situations in the Middle East, among others.

I just came from Scandinavia, supposedly the most developed part of the world.

And, you know, even there, you know, we were checking if, you know, kamusta ang kalagayan ng mga Pinoy doon,

talking to the DFA folks, friends like that.

So I get where you're coming from.

Now, Sonny, let's go back to the grim part.

What is really super ugly about the fact that the Philippines, despite being the fastest growing economy in the region,

is not creating quality growth.

It's not creating, ah, I hate it, inclusive growth.

Yung mga ganyan, yung mga ek-ek na yan.

Yung mga ganyan, UN language, right?

I mean, just say it for what it is.

The Filipino poor are not being lifted out of poverty.

The Filipino middle class is under difficult conditions.

I gave a number in 2012.

The World Bank said something like this.

Something like 40 richest families took home 76% of newly created growth.

That's twice worse than Thailand, which has been in the midst of a kind of a civil, mini civil war.

That's like five times worse than Malaysia and completely incomparable to the situation in Japan.

This is 2011, 2012, Sonny.

So I don't think even the term not inclusive enough is capturing it.

But just to set the tone for our next two short episodes,

Sonny, what is the super ugly part about our growth?

So you already hinted at hunger rates.

What about employment quality under employment?

And also in terms of productivity, in terms of productivity.

Don't worry, i-reset ko yung internet after this episode para hopefully better.

So let's talk about these three things, no?

First, perhaps, food inflation and impact on hunger.

Second, Sonny, let's discuss in terms of, aside from food inflation and hunger,

the aspect of quality of employment or underemployment,

which is a big problem for a lot of Filipino people.

And lastly, if we can talk about productivity growth, especially in manufacturing sector.

If you can look at those three, I think, dimensions, it would be very helpful.

Do you want me to give you a share screen, kind of?

Do you want to share data? I don't mind.

That would be, I think, fantastic.

Oh my God, I have to dig up.

So, or if ever.

I have to dig up.

If ever, forward mo na lang sa akin.

Sige, we can put your studies there in link for people to study on their own.

Because everything we say here, I know yung background mo medyo parang maharly ka rin, like me.

Pero hindi kami marites. Ano kami? Data-driven kami.

Alright? So, so yeah. Let's go for it.

Let's talk about those three dimensions para people appreciate bakit ugly yung situation.

So, so I should, I'm kind of getting fragments of yung question mo.

Pero ang gets ko, okay, coming from the growth thing,

sa totoo lang, may ongoing conversation with a businessman eh.

He's one of the executives on the mga big business groups eh.

Parang he keeps asking us what's wrong with the growth we have.

Sa akin, totoo naman. I mean, if you have a growing population, the economy has to grow to provide for them.

So, on that level, of course, walang problem with growth.

But our pet peeve there is, there's something wrong if that growth is mainly felt as, you know, increased profits for few corporations,

increased wealth for few families. Pero yung nga, yung sabi nga hindi inclusive, yung majority doon benefit.

At sa amin, super important actually the whole, the last labor force survey that came out.

Statistics are kind of tricky. The government made a big thing about the employment rate going to about 4-4.5%.

Parang among the lowest daw in about 15-20 years.

Ang problema doon, they should have also said that, did you know employment fell from August to September?

There's actually over 400,000, 407,000.

Right, right. Oh my goodness.

Parang, you can't talk about growth if the number of employed fell.

Pero ang tanong doon, teka, if the number of employed fell, why did the unemployment rate improve?

Simply because those who actually lost their jobs, added to those millions who don't have jobs, were not counted as unemployed.

There's a statistical quirk that if you're not counted as part of the labor force, for instance, because you haven't been looking for work in the last six months,

you're not counted as...

Right, methodological mumbo jumbo, yeah.

Yeah, so medyo sa akin, that's so important kasi at the end of the day, growth should tell.

Growth should translate into jobs. It should translate into decent incomes.

And what's being produced should be translated into cheap goods for goods and services for the people.

But we're not seeing that eh. Sa amin, the labor force figures are so important to look at.

We're not, you know, among those who say na, yeah, kinakalikot yan.

Even taking the figures at face value, we're not just seeing jobless growth, we're seeing jobless stuff.

Right, right.

Okay.

We're seeing jobless growth, yeah. Definitely, yeah. That's definitely a challenge I see, Son, yeah.

Yes.

There are a million more families declaring themselves poor since the start of the Marxist administration.

It's not just the administration's fault. May, may struggle for administration, but that figure is there.

The Banco Central counted almost 19 million Filipinos to be...

Son, I think I need to reset my internet. This part is a little bit tricky.

Let me reset my internet and get back to you shortly, Son. Kasi sayangan, maganda yung intervention mo nung part na yan.

Can you give me like a few minutes lang? Let me send you real...

Sorry about it. Kasi nasayangan ako. Ang ganda ng analysis.

Because this is preparing us for the next episode, which is yung next episode.

Which is, you know, the hegemony of, you know, the kind of orthodox economic thinking, whatever you want to call it,

and how that has really kept the Philippines behind before we talk.

Just give me a few minutes. I'll reset lang my internet.

Kasi ano eh, mga oligarchs ang pag-usapan natin. So, feeling ko sinasabotaje tayo.

I never had my internet so bad. So, I think alam nila ng pag-usapan natin mga oligarchs eh.

So, baka we're being sabotaged on that. So, just a second. Let me just reset this.

I'll send you the link.

I'll send you the link, the new link. I think baka...

Or hindi. Baka the same link lang. Just give me a few minutes.

Have a five minutes break and then let's continue.

Okay. I'll come back in like two minutes.

Yeah. Please take five minutes. That should be fine.

Yup.

Wait lang guys. I reset ko lang internet ko dito. Sobrang bagal ko.

Hindi ko alam bakit ganyan yung internet ko ngayon. One second ah.

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Thank you for watching!

Thank you for watching!