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All right, here we go, here we go. This is it. This is a conversation I've been looking forward to for quite some time.

It's something close to my heart. It may not necessarily seem as the sexiest conversation,

but we want to talk about development strategy down the road.

And one of the persons that I truly respect, a progressive person,

a person who has been writing a lot on Philippine economy, our developmental crisis,

someone who's progressive, of course, in every sense of the word, is, of course, Sunny Africa.

Thank you very much, Sunny Africa, Executive Director of Ebon Foundation for joining us today, sir.

Hey, Richard. Thanks for the invitation. Happy to be here. Hope you have something to share.

Pleasure, pleasure. Sorry if my internet is not as good, but as long as the audio comes in, I think we'll be happy about this.

There's a lot to discuss for today, and I think it's very timely to have this kind of discussions.

Now, of course, you and I have had engagement.

Throughout the years, not as direct as today, but I think you also use the term Duterte-garks.

So both of us thought about it independently. It's just that I came ahead, so being credit grabber, I trolled you on that.

But all respect, all respect. I really like the contributions of the Ebon Foundation to economic discussions in the Philippines.

Now, let's first start, Sunny. Who is Sunny Africa? I mean, Tito Boy Abundaway.

Hey, like, who is Sunny Africa?

Who do you love the most in life?

But more importantly, what's the Ebon Foundation? And what do you do?

Before we discuss Marcos, economic, food inflation, and all of that.

Before we go there, for the purpose of our audience, especially younger audience, Sunny Africa, a short introduction, maybe.

I'm not losing you, but...

Yes, please go ahead. No, no. We got it. Yeah, please go ahead. Yeah.

Yes, Sunny.

Sunny. Yeah, yeah.

Ebon, talking about Marcos economics, Ebon was set up in 1978 during this, our first episode of Really Bad Marcos Economics.

It was set up, very straightforward objective, bring economics down to the people.

Economics is too important to be left to economists, especially it's too important to be left to our politicians.

So from the very start in 1978, Ebon was set up to try and explain economic issues.

To regular people, so they can engage.

So whether it's workers, in trade unions, farmers in peasant organizations, urban poor, doing their demolition struggles, all of that.

We, Ebon did feel that economics had to be explained as something that bituki isyo talaga siya.

Beyond the short term, sana even the long term.

So Ebon has been there for 45 years.

Middle age, for those who believe in numerology.

Ebon is 45 years old.

And then we did a quick...

Check of the average age of the staff, also 45.

Eh, coterminous ba yan? Sorry, Sunny.

Sorry, Sunny. Coterminous ba yan? I don't wanna ask age, but it's like...

Hindi naman yata.

Hindi naman yata, okay.

As long as people are, you know, able, willing to do, you know, keep up the fight amid all the difficulties, we're still around.

Also inviting young progressive economists who want to join Ebon, just, you know, knock on their door.

Just, you know, knock on their door.

Yes, go for it.

We'll sort something out.

We can do some...

We can work together.

Sunny, a little bit about yourself.

Of course, your background in development studies, London School of Economics, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, you know, how did you come about in terms of your research and advocacy in the field of development economics or development studies?

Ah, ano kaya?

I think that's been...

I think that's been...

Just activis...

Just activis...

Right.

rainfall.

I had a nice happy childhood.

Had a nice happy high school life.

Also had a nice happy oblivious college life.

But I was in London at the time, in LSE.

And what really struck home for me that time was...

And what really struck home for me that time was...

That was at a time that in the mid 1990s

That was at a time that in the mid 1990s

that was at a time that in the mid 1990s

in London.

It just struck home to me one time after a, you know, nice university night of forests.

It just struck home to me one time after a, you know, nice university night of forests.

university night of partying.

A Filipina, about 3 in the morning

when the

party wound down,

she knocked on the door

with one maleta, said,

gonna run away from my employer

but he can't tell I'm running away because she

took my passport. Asked me to keep

the maleta until she'd run away.

Very furtively,

she went back up to

her employer, was a Middle Eastern employer.

And, you know,

you don't think the aftermath of a party,

you have a buzz. And for that to happen,

just stuck home, it's kind of weird.

I mean, here I am, studying

abroad, having a fairly

comfortable life, a Filipino,

and then another Filipina

in the exact same building I'm in,

completely different circumstances.

It was that moment of desperation.

It struck home. I was just doing

philosophy moments at the time.

And then I

did my master's in development studies.

Came home,

worked for a year in NEDA,

saw how,

I'm not gonna say corrupt,

saw how challenging working in the government

was for economic development.

Ran away back to the academy for a year,

tried doing a

doctorate. After two years,

realized,

why am I studying in London

when the battle is in the Philippines?

So I interrupted my doctorate,

started NGO work,

and I've been here ever since.

So, Sonny, you're a recovering

Konyo in that sense, right?

And then, I mean, just to say this,

I'm saying this with complete

self-awareness, just to be clear about it, right?

You can bash my Konyo Tagalog and all,

but I think you're more legit Konyo.

Ako, probinsya ng Konyo lang ako

from Baguio. No, but, Sonny,

your story is actually as unique

and exceptional as it is.

It has parallels

with a lot of people. I mean, people like

Walden Belio, a mentor of mine,

also came from privilege, right?

Went to Princeton University, went to United States.

Also, of course, my

de facto co-host, Ronald Llamas,

also came from quite a comfortable background.

And then he saw the reality of Smoky

Mountain, etc., na tauhan.

In fact, our own hero, Rizal, right?

Like, he had a comfortable life in Calamba

until his own family ran into

trouble with the

frayurocracy

in the Philippines. So, I think your

story, in many ways,

exemplifies that

kind of

middle-class or upper-class

Filipino that was

essentially shaken out of their stupor,

right? And then dedicates the rest

of their life. So, I'm not trying to downplay

the uniqueness of your story, but

it's also very instructive because we have a lot

of people like that. I mean, I don't want to call it

noble oblige, right? But there's

a certain degree of noble oblige, perhaps, there.

Now, Sonny, I don't want to go to showbiz

and talk about your love life, etc.

Let's get down to business.

All right.

Of course, folks are free

to download yung mga excellent

studies by Ibon Foundation throughout the years,

including authored by Sonny, Africa,

and a lot of smart people. By the way, Sonny,

kamag-anak mo yung, ano, di ba, yung

debater champion, di ba, si Africa?

Yeah.

Nephew and neighbor.

Wow. Okay. Send my regards.

Actually, bumped up our cachet here.

Little neighbor and katipunan.

All these signs.

Congratulations, David, Africa.

Oh, my God.

Perfected glory for me.

No, I know, I know.

I mean, that refraction is always a good thing.

No, I mean, ako and Leloy, of course,

we were competitive debaters back in the UP,

atinay, etc. But we never thought

there'll be a Filipino be world champion.

Because, you know, we had to deal with a lot of racism,

let's be honest about it, coming from the

developing world. You know, we didn't

have the right posh accent, blah, blah, blah.

But I'm so glad that, you know,

brilliant kids like your nephew have

shattered that glass ceiling.

And, of course, they're brilliant themselves.

No question about it. I'm just saying,

this,

something emotional for me and Leloy.

Actually, we had the whole episode just about

your nephew, right? And then how

we feel this is our moment.

Yeah, yeah. Believe me or not.

Anyway, digression. Now, let's go to

forget about their nephew for a while.

Let's talk about...

I'll probably look for that and pass it to him

if I haven't seen it yet.

Sige, I think I'll find it. Yeah, dun sa episode namin next.

I'll forward ko na lang sa'yo, Sonny.

Now, Sonny, let's go back to this.

Of course, you're great, too.

I'm just, you know, I'm just nag-digress lang ako

just to put things. I mean, there's something

perhaps with your extended family.

Teka, they should... You're super choppy.

I'm sorry.

Just get back to me.

No, don't worry about it. We're still hearing you.

I think as long as we get the audio right, I think

that should be fine. So, Sonny,

let me put you on speaker and then probably

remove my video para faster yan

when I question you and all.

Now, Sonny, let's go back to this. First of all,

what is your assessment of the Marcos

Jr. Administration's economic

performance so far?

What is the good, if any, what is the

bad, and what is the ugly? I think that's a good

framework. The good, the bad, and the ugly, if we can

put it that way.

Oh, well, I'm so

sorry. I'm a little bit nasty. I mean,

there's nothing good.

Okay.

It's tough, you know. I mean,

I always had this weird

irritation, people

trying to find the good in something when

it's fundamentally bad. I mean, it's like

saying, oh, don't worry about Hitler.

You know, he loved dogs. He was so nice to

his...

Wait, grabe ka naman.

Hitler ka agad. I mean, nag-escalate

ka agad. Di man lang Bolsonaro.

Di man lang...

Government's economic policy

spans so much of the economy.

So parang, completely, if you want to find

something good, may meron naman.

So, alimbawa, right now, in the middle of

all these social problems,

okay, that 1 million

na cash subsidies

binibigay for informal

workers, of course, that's good.

Yeah, but if you're talking about

roughly 20 million families,

or like poverty line

or below, or like sort of

poverty line and vulnerable,

parang, why make

a big thing out of that good, that tiny

good thing? So parang, sorry, I mean,

not to be nasty, but to put it

into context, you can always find

good in

everything.

Right, parang your point is

for not inflicting. But I think

the economy is really, is downward side.

It's not actually even flat. It's not

actually going downwards.

Right now, that moment to find something good, it's

yeah, and I think it's kind of pandering to people

trying to sort of find some

justification in the way things are.

Right now, feeling ko, mag-focus tayo dun sa

bad and the ugly kasi

there's really so much to change.

I think the pinaka-pinaka bad is

the fact that in terms of outcomes,

it doesn't make sense that

after all these, you know, hype

growth and hype foreign investment,

di ba, biggest foreign investment

under

tatay, I think in 2020,

parang 11, 12 billion dollars.

Wow, it's like a record for the Philippines.

Parang despite all the

rapid growth, despite all the foreign

investment, despite all the claims

na we're sort of

fixing our competitiveness,

why are roughly 7

or 8 out of 10 Filipino families

no savings or

self-declare themselves poor or

borderline poor? So parang, that's such a

big bad. This is the SWES survey, right?

I think in our economy's

spaces, stop finding,

Right, right.

Huwag natin pilitin, essentially,

yung ano, di ba? Huwag natin pilitin na.

Huwag natin pilitin na.

Huwag natin self-reflection, eh.

I mean, despite 14 years of all

these, you know, gloating about

rising star in Asia,

rapid economic growth,

well-respected central bankers,

rising tiger economy.

It is kind of ugly that they're

not accepting the fact that

our industry or manufacturing

sector is small.

At least, since the 1940s,

they're accepting that all this foreign

investment makes for good headlines

and a profit of the Philippine economy.

So, I think the ugliness comes from

parang kulang na self-reflection.

Saya nga, eh. I mean, you know,

we're gonna keep going from

administration to administration,

and the economy's gonna keep on

sasad-sad talaga siya.

If there's no acceptance that,

may problem talaga tayo.

So, what you're saying is huwag natin

pilitin na there's any good

if there's not a good.

Ako naman, I mean, hindi naman totally sarcastic.

At least, I'm glad that we don't have

an inflation of 80% like Turkey

and Argentina. I'm glad that

we're still the fastest growing in ASEAN,

although, of course, our per capita is so low that

growing at 6% is whatever, right?

We should be growing at 10%. I'm just saying,

as someone who always studies other developing

countries of the world, you know, I've been in the Middle East,

I've been in other parts of the world. Parang,

at least, we're not as bad as them, right? But, you're right.

I mean, that doesn't make it good,

but, I don't know. It's better than nothing.

But, what's wrong?

Imbis na good, bad, the ugly.

Better than bad,

bad than the ugly. Kung ganun,

I can sort of pick up a few

better than bad things.

Sama ka, inflation, good. We don't have

double-digit inflation, but also,

second highest inflation

for the year in Southeast Asia.

Yes, I agree with you.

I agree.

It's gonna be stretching it to call it good.

Parang yung good, kailangan may talaw ka

na maganda talaga. And it's headed towards

something better. But, yung good natin is

it's just not as bad as

others. So, Sonny,

how ugly is the...

I'm in a bad mood. I've been in traffic for so long.

I know, Sonny. Okay. Ganito na. Sonny, you have to

understand also where I'm coming from. Kasi ako,

my philosophy of political

mobilization is that there should always be

a philosophy of hope. And my

fear is if you do not talk

about anything good, no matter how little,

baka maging cynical na lang

tao and they switch out. Do you get where I'm coming from?

Because, you know, as someone who...

Do you get what I'm saying? So, actually, this is

not cynical. I'm just saying,

before you get people interested in

political activism, you have to

give them a sense of reasonable hope.

Now, we can debate about what is a

reasonable hope, but my point is, if you say the

picture is all dark and dreary,

ang hirap mag-mobilize ng tao. People just

switch off. Sonny, I can tell you confidently

because I'm very active online,

social media, mainstream media,

and napansin ko, if toxic ang tingin

ng tao sa politika, they're just gonna leave it.

And I think that's bad because

it's just gonna leave the field to the baddies.

The baddies want people to lose hope

because when people are hopeless, they can become

enslaved. That's my reading of it,

Sonny. So, I hope you see where I'm coming

from. But, absolutely, you know me,

I'm very realistic. I mean, goodness.

I mean, I have all... You know, I always compare

Philippines with other developing countries. Hindi ako

nagpipiling na walang ganyan sa States, walang ganyan

sa Singapore. I always say like, walang ganyan

sa Thailand, walang ganyan sa Vietnam, walang ganyan sa

Argentina or Turkey. I'm that kind of person.

Now, Sonny, let's get...

Pero, I'll sing it lang. Pero, good kasi

I'm not gonna find it in

the government's current economic policies

kasi they're repeating the same mistakes that have been

repeated for literally

every developing plan since the

base for plan ng Bruce Plan nung late

1940. Sa akin, I'd look for the

good outside of the official

development plans, outside of the official

technocracy. I'd look for it

the fact that, halimbawa, ikaw,

nagtatanong ka. And that's a big thing for me.

I mean, for the longest time,

industrialization has dumped on. Since the 1990s,

I mean, the last president

even talked about industrialization was

President Ramos, diba?

Since then, from Estrada,

Mark and Gloria onwards,

it was about, yeah, let's open up

and then whatever the market decides is our

economic structure, that's it. So, I can...

For me, that's a good thing. But it's not

coming from government. And to be

clear, we do talk to a few technocrats

within government, but they're so

not cynical, but they've been so

bludgeoned by the fact that

it's not in their career interest to talk about

industrialization.

It's not in their career interest

to break this hegemony

of medieval thinking. So, they're not speaking.

But sa akin, the good won't be in the official

structures. I think it comes from outside, from

people like you, public intellectuals talking about

it. It comes from, they're still,

despite all the attacks against progressives,

there are still organizations

talking about industrialization, talking

about economic reforms. There are still,

despite the political attacks, a few

precious few politicians

trying to sort of, you know,

create a bulwark against neoliberalism.

And then, they think

it's for, it's not good, but

yung tanong ko kasi kanina sa

economic policy, hindi ko pipilitin.

I mean, even their housekeeping's not very

good, eh. And then,

the good they could do,

it's not okay.

It's like, part of the whole

Marcus drama of

feel-good properties

to a handful of UV

leaders and drivers, a handful of

low-income families, a handful of

farmers. Parang, kung sabihin namin

good yan, parang na-legitimize

pa yung feel-good

performative tokenistic economic

reforms. So, I don't want to be cynical

in that sense, pero, in terms of

hope, hopefully,

people are asking

what can be done. People are organizing,

they're being attacked, and surviving those

attacks, I think that's the raw

matter for development. People have to start,

it's a social movement, eh. All economic

change naman is a question of

mass mobilization, eh.

And intellectuals.

Right. I mean, first of all, let me say,

you have no idea. I mean, there are some, even

Wall Street folks who have been listening to some of my

podcasts on industrial policy and all.

So, you never know who's listening to you, right?

We're hoping the right people will listen

in one way or another. But, you're right.

I mean, ako naman, kasi ganitong basa ko

dito, Sunny. The reason we're growing

at 6% has nothing to do with the

supposed intelligence of our

administration. It's because of the hard-working

Filipino people.

It's because of all the, you know.

So, that for me is good, because we have hard-working

people, you know, who are sacrificing

blood and sweat to make sure

na the country as a whole moves forward.

That, for me, is a good thing. That our

Kababayans at least have that

room for contribution to economic growth.

That our Kababayans are the kind of,

have the kind of work ethic and education.

So, for me, that's a good thing. Again, you're right.

We shouldn't credit the government for that.

But, at least, I'm also gonna credit the government for not

totally getting in the way of that. I mean,

we're growing in spite of,

our government. But, you know, I know

a lot of bad governments around the world doing

crazy mumbo-jumbo economics. I mean, look at, for

instance, Raja Type Ardoan in Turkey,

right? Playing mumbo-jumbo games

with interest rates and all of that. Thankfully,

we don't have at least those kind of leaders. So,

again, I agree with you in terms

of making sure you don't give credit to those

who don't deserve it. But, I'm just saying,

there's always a silver lining there.

And, I'm not forcing it in this kind of

pathetic, self-satisfied, liberal,

complacent way. No, I'm just saying,

we have to give credit to the Filipino people. All of

the OFWs and Pinoys. I mean, Sonny,

you're not the only one who has come across

Filipinos with horrible circumstances

abroad. I worked in the Philippine

Overseas Workers Affairs Committee back

in the day, legislature. We had to deal with

very, very difficult situations

in the Middle East, among others. I

just came from Scandinavia,

supposedly the most developed part of the world.

And, you know, even there, you know, we were

checking if, you know, kamusta yung kalagayan ng mga Pinoy

doon, talking to the DFA folks,

friends like that. So, I get where you're coming from.

Now, Sonny, let's go back to the green

part. What is really super ugly

about the fact that the Philippines, despite being

the fastest-growing economy in the region, is not

creating quality growth. It's not creating

– oh, I hate it – inclusive

growth. Yung mga ganyan, mga ek-ek na yan.

Yung mga ganyan.

UN language, right? I mean, just

say it for what it is.

The Filipino poor are not being lifted out of

poverty. The Filipino middle class is under

difficult conditions. I gave a number

in 2012. The World Bank said

something like 40 richest

families took home 76

percent of newly created growth.

That's twice worse than Thailand,

which has been in the midst of a kind of a civil

mini-civil war. That's like

five times worse than Malaysia,

and completely incomparable to the situation

in Japan. This is 2011-2012,

Sonny. So,

I don't think even the term not

inclusive enough is

capturing it. But

just to set the tone for our next two

short episodes,

Sonny, what is the super

ugly part about our growth? So, you already,

hinted at hunger rates.

What about employment quality,

underemployment, and also

in terms of productivity.

In terms of productivity. Don't worry, I'll reset

the internet after this episode for hopefully better.

So, let's talk about these three things.

First, perhaps, food

inflation and impact on hunger.

Second, Sonny, let's discuss

in terms of, aside

from food inflation and hunger, let's discuss

the aspect of

quality of employment or underemployment,

which is a big problem for a lot of Filipino

people. And lastly, if we can

talk about productivity

growth, especially in manufacturing sector.

If you can look at those three, I think, dimensions,

it would be very helpful.