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All right, good evening everyone. Finally, this interview's time has arrived. I've been looking forward to this for quite some time.

Today we have with us a former senator and of course, Atty. Layla Dalima. Kamusta po kaya, Atty.?

Oh, I'm fine. Very exhausted. For me, the past 12 days, it's been 12 days from my date of release.

I still can't get over it. I'm still getting my bearings, so to speak.

You know, just adjusting to the environment. I still feel disoriented from it all.

I still miss my own cell there, my own bed there, the whole surroundings.

It's really very disorienting. The supposed to be familiar things in my own home have become suddenly unfamiliar.

So I'm really still adjusting.

Yeah, actually, that's why, Senator, I didn't want to pull it to you earlier because I know you wanted to spend time also with your family, loved ones.

Of course, some of your loved ones are actually friends of mine over Twitter. We have been keeping in touch throughout the years.

And as you may know, I mean, you know, your case has been very, very close to our hearts.

Ako, you know, a lot of our common friends. Some people know, actually, the other year, I almost had tears in my eyes.

I had to control myself when I was talking about your predicament.

It was always an element of hope. I always look forward to this moment.

And it looks like some of my prognostications about things turning in a better way has turned out.

But before we go into your legal case and your broader hopes for Philippine democracy,

Senator Delima, I mean, the last time we met was when you were still in detention.

I remember we discussed about...

Yes, you gave a visit.

I know. We talked about Mandela. We talked about Stoicism. We talked about faith and the Scripture and Bible.

So, it was a very spiritual meeting.

And to be honest, I was very touched by our meeting noon because I saw talagang strength of character nyo.

And I was also very impressed na talagang maaliwalas kayo. I mean, considering everything you were going through.

So, there was this kind of an almost soulful, parang beyond the fray na kayo.

There was this kind of a spiritual aura there.

So, how did you arrive at that, Senator Delima?

Can you tell me first about kung mag-lifestyle guro tayo?

Like, if you're going to give advice on resilience...

...strength and conviction, can you tell us your journey?

Because this is really one of a kind.

My whole ordeal has really been liberating.

And it's really all just a matter of attitude.

You know, the correct mindset.

Setting your right mindset on a daily basis.

That you've got to have your daily ordeal, your daily things to do must be set, must be scheduled.

Keep yourself...

...busy.

And always have a purpose.

Because you can never tell the next day you're no longer around.

And you just have to make the most of every day, of every moment in life, in detention.

So, my routine has been very strict on a daily basis.

From the waking up hours and up to the last hours of the night...

...until I get sleepy.

From readings, because I have longer hours of reading, I have longer hours of praying, compared to when I was still not in detention.

And appreciating everything around you, even small blessings in life, even the simplest moments in life, you get to find joy in it.

Because you have a very limited environment, physical environment.

Because you have a very limited environment, physical environment.

Because you have a very limited environment, physical environment.

So everything there seems to be very important to you.

Everything there seems to be valuable to you.

And everything there seems to be...

It's just your whole world now.

So it's all important.

You're not wasting time.

You now realize which are the most essential things in your life and which ones you can do without.

So, simple, mundane things suddenly become valuable, essential.

So, simple, mundane things suddenly become valuable, essential.

So, simple, mundane things suddenly become valuable, essential.

So, simple, mundane things suddenly become valuable, essential.

You have time to imagine multiple things, multiple.

And if you know one thing, you know every others.

You have a very limited time to imagine multiple, multiple things.

You have a very limited time to imagine multiple, multiple things.

It's like a barrel of time.

It's like a cannon, that's what you play with.

You have a very limited time to think about as much as possible.

Dealing with it properly with the right psychology.

Dealing with it properly with the right psychology.

Senator, can we go back to this?

How did you arrive at this kind of discipline routine that carried you through this very difficult years?

Because just the prospect of uncertainty ...

Just the prospect of uncertainty.

I remember the last time we were together, we were talking, parang hindi sure na you will ever be granted the bail.

So how did you cope with it? How did you arrive at that routine?

Well, almost instantly, just a few days from incarceration, I told myself, I have to be busy.

I have to have this routine. I have to do something. I cannot afford to be idle. I cannot afford to entertain negativism.

I cannot afford to be distressed. And so there's never been any moment that I feel depressed because that's what I was trying to avoid.

Yes, I would be lonely at times. I would even cry at times, especially.

The first few months, thinking about my family, thinking about my home, thinking about why it happened to me.

It was initially a feeling of utter disbelief of what happened to me, of what was done to me.

Then I've got to accept it, that now I'm in this situation and I've got, as I said, deal with it properly, as best as I could.

Senator, the reason I'm asking this is, you know, I mean,

you know,

in many ways, I can relate to it because you're, you know, you're a very ambitious person.

You were very successful in your career.

You went, you know, from one high to another high.

I mean, becoming, I mean,

he's chief of the CHR and then becoming the justice secretary, very high profile, then becoming the senator of the republic.

I mean, you need a certain kind of spirit behind that kind of ambitious and successful life.

And then now suddenly you're facing this very uncertain, almost martyr-like moment.

So how did that psychological transition,

did something switch on in you or suddenly like there was a moment of spiritual awakening?

I mean, what's going on?

The reason I'm asking is because we have another precedent, right?

See, Ninoy, right?

Ninoy was a very ambitious, successful politician, and then things went really wrong for him.

Then suddenly something else came out of him, right?

Kaya nga people talagang about the young Ninoy and then the more wise, almost prophetic kind of Ninoy.

Did you also go through that kind of transition or something switched on in you?

Well, definitely I had a palpable spiritual growth in confinement because I had enough time really to pray,

enough time to read the Bible, to do contemplative prayer, to do reflection.

So deep in faith, devotional prayers, devotional readings, a lot of those.

So spiritual awakening.

I wasn't that prayerful before.

I hardly read Bible before.

Ninoy said exactly the same thing.

I think, Ninoy, you had interviews with 700 Club or something that he was not really a particular pious person

and then suddenly he realized, no?

Yeah, there's something else to human life and human...

So when I started praying, praying the rosary, contemplative prayers,

and reading the Bible, the scriptures, then I could feel that spiritual growth in me.

The purification process, the liberating, the feeling of liberation.

So that is the awakening.

That is the blessing.

That is the blessing of the whole ordeal.

It is initially a curse because I did not deserve to be in jail, but it turned out to be a blessing.

Because of that, I became closer to God.

I had conversations with God.

I had intimate sessions with Him early evening after Angelos and before I wrote in my journal.

So that's correct.

That's the whole environment would lead you to that.

When you say liberation, spiritual liberation,

is it also...

The fact that for year after year, you're thinking about the political landscape,

you're thinking about your political survival, your political success,

and then suddenly you can put all of that aside and go to the very fundamentals of what it is to live a life,

to be a righteous.

Is it also that kind of just like casting away all of those everyday calculus and survival and all of that?

You're right.

It's the fundamental existence and your worth as a Christian.

As a Catholic.

I was born a Christian.

I was born and raised as a Catholic.

I'm going back to the fundamentals because in between, in the interlude,

I was not really that faithful in the sense that yes, I would go to Sunday Masses,

but not, you know, all other obligations were not there.

We're not being observed.

Now suddenly, because again of the environment,

I was forced to go back to the basics as a Christian and as a Catholic.

So, wala na muna yung iba.

Yeah.

Let's just focus on this.

To me, that's more important.

And I was there, that's more important.

Even I see that there were a lot of things happening outside in the political world,

but I said, no,

I want this moment.

Yeah.

I want this situation that I'm, I have a direct line to God that I'm very comfortable talking to Him,

communicating with Him, and it feels just so cool.

Right.

Yeah, yun nga eh, Senator, it's that kind of a sublime, sublime feeling and sublime aura that I noticed

the last time we had that kind of conversation.

Senator, I, you know, Attorney Delima, I have a question.

What about the aspect, I mean, you talked about a lot about, you know,

recentering yourself and casting away all of those distractions and all.

But what about the element of, the element of forgiveness and the element of,

let's be honest, I mean, when, when everything turned on you,

there was a lot of horrible things being said, not only against you,

but a lot of, against anyone who tried to stand up to Duterte.

I mean, all of us in,

our own little ways, you know, have been victim of, of that kind of Dutertismo ideology,

whatever you want to call it.

Of course, your case was the worst, by far.

And, and, to be, I mean, honest, there were times that I was wondering,

di ko kilala yung mga aking mga kababayan.

Like, how could they cheer on etong drug war na pumapatay ng mga ordinaryong people?

I couldn't believe some people who were saying horrible things about you,

or Maria Reza, or Riza Ontiveros.

And, like, parang hindi ko kilala tong bansa na to,

hindi eto yung mga kababayan na kilala.

You get what I'm saying, Senator Delima?

It was really difficult for me, because mahal na mahal natin yung bayan natin.

At mahal natin yung bayan natin dahil mahal natin yung mga kababayan natin.

And then, suddenly you were seeing this dark, ugly side of people,

this mob kind of culture and all.

And it was really, it was not only scary, it was really disheartening and demoralizing.

And I can imagine your case was thousand times worse than what a lot of us faced

as anyone who dared to challenge Duterte on any issue.

Can you tell us a little bit more about that, Attorney Delima?

Like, how did you deal with the question of forgiveness?

And understanding yung kababayan natin, how could they turn that way?

Because I never thought we could turn this way, or I never thought I would in my lifetime.

So I can imagine it was probably even more shocking in your case.

Yes, unimaginable.

Because, you know, this course that has afflicted our nation, which is the social media,

you know, it has, you know, in...

in many ways, it's even more frightening than the usual methods of cooptation and repression

and even, you know, the bad habits and all that.

But, um, I felt that sa kabila na yan, hindi ko kasi kaya na hindi pa rin ako maniwala

o magtiwala and have faith with our countrymen.

Because I knew and I felt and I believed that in the end, most of the Filipino people

would still know or would still be able to discern the good from the bad.

So in spite of that, because of the various influences, and then we have the kind of leader

that we had since 2016 that brought up that, that brought up, that created that kind of

political environment of history.

Yeah.

Of, of negativism, of, of, of, of simply casting, uh, negative things about, um, certain

personalities.

Yeah.

And I was the chief target of that leader.

Then you can't blame the, the, uh, the, uh, some people who are gullible enough to accept

those lies, those vilifications.

Yeah.

To, to believe.

Yeah.

Those, those, uh, lies about you.

Now, as I said, I never lost faith in the Filipino people, that in the end, they would

know that all this are simply trash, you know, so, and this, the forgiveness, the scriptures

teach us to forgive our enemies, even our scriptures, even tell us, teach us to love

our enemies.

Although that is a bit too difficult, but it's too much for me.

Yeah.

To love enemies.

Forgive, forgiveness, I think is enough, but, um, forgiveness also as they say is more

for your sake so that you would have, you would have no further burdens if, because

if you keep on, on, on instilling this ill will against anyone, then, uh, you will suffer.

Psychologically.

Psychologically and even health wise.

So, ikaw din ang magsasuffer.

Yeah.

Kung palagi kang may kinikim-kim.

Yun ang palagi mo iniisip.

Anyway, bahala na sila.

Bahala.

And, and I would always pray for them.

God, dear God, please give them the grace to understand what is true and what is good

and what is right.

And God, give me the grace to forgive these people.

Amen.

So, that's my, that's how I took it.

I mean, of course, I mean, even in the scripture, you know, we see how the Israelites sometimes

were led astray.

I mean, when, when Moses was just receiving the Ten Commandments, a lot of things were

happening down there, right?

And of course, what happened also to Jesus Christ, you know, I mean, the kind of, you

know, mob attack and the horrible things done to him, you know, before his, uh, you know,

his, his martyrdom, right?

Uh, so, so we have a lot of that.

So, we have a lot of that.

But you're also right.

I mean, for me, uh, attorney, one of the ways I tried to understand this was grievance,

no?

I mean, I think a lot of our kababayan were just so frustrated with a lot of things that

didn't go right.

And this is not necessarily on, you know, the Aquino administration or, or your tenure.

It's just, you know, all the broken or half-fulfilled promises after the collapse of the Marcos

dictatorship.

So, ako sabi ko, marami dyan mga, ano lang, frustrated lang sila and that has unfortunately

made them more susceptible to this policy.

Okay.

I mean, you know, the politics of hatred and fear and grievance that Dutertismo represented.

But similar to you, I, I, I get your point, um, uh, Senator de Lima, which is, you know,

this, this is an unfortunate face, but perhaps it's part of the maturation of our democracy

and maturation of, you know, political consciousness among yung mga kababayan natin.

I mean, I, I can tell you personally, like, six, seven years ago, I, I would have doubted

that, you know, people, thousands of people would be interested in political analysis

in the way we do.

And now I see more and more people interested.

So, unfortunately, it was a difficult transition process, but I think it was, unfortunately,

or perhaps it's just inevitable.

It's part of the maturation process.

Now, Senator de Lima, I have another question.

I mean, obviously, you know, we can talk about Jesus Christ and what he had to go through,

you know, to fight for truth and to fulfill his, uh, his destiny.

Um, but obviously, there were also, you know, political figures like Mandela, among others,

who also went through very, very difficult, uh, moments and eventually, they came out

triumphant.

I mean, you know, there was a kind of an archetype of martyr political leader and democratic

icon all at once.

To what degree were you inspired by the experiences of these people without, of course, anyone

being presumptuous?

I mean, we're just talking about role models that you were, biographies, were there biographies

you were reading of, uh, heroes, revolutionary heroes?

Mandela, of course, were top of the list, were top of the list.

I, I cannot cite any other because I've been reading a lot and there's been really a lot

of role models.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I would not stand for truth, anyone who would stand for democracy.

There are several democracy icons.

There are several who would stand up for, for, uh, social justice.

So I would not really, I'm not that type of person who would, who would just be citing

who, my, you know, uh, my role models.

I, I, I would want that I take examples from, even from ordinary people.

Right.

Who, who take leap of faith, who would, who would, um, take extra steps to, to, um,

make a difference in society.

Now if we can go back, backslide to our discussion on the, uh, state of democracy and then the

political climate, I'd like to see that, uh, what's happening now is actually kind of normalization.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The political state of our country is a process of normalization after, after the, uh, major

populist disruption that was the Duterte regime.

See, this is a time to strengthen the institutions that Duterte destroyed.

And again, that's why I've been, I've been, uh, commending the, uh, this administration.

Yeah.

This administration in its respect for the rule of law and the judiciary.

Because it, it, you know, it would aid greatly in restoring the people's faith in the judiciary.

And um, I hope that the people have, uh, seen the cost of a social experiment with a leader

like Duterte.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Oh, I agree.

I think is the government must renamed this as a presidential trial.

That'sorang and katina literal.

As president.

Mm-hmm.

So, I get nervous, you know, about like the psychoanalysis of the reform and the

reenactment.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

had carried out, which had

enveloped our

national polity in

2016. Because that

to me is a malaise,

a malaise that should

never happen again.

And so,

this talk about his

running for the Senate

and even to be vice president

if

P.P. Sara is impeached,

I read about it in the papers,

God forbid.

I know that there's still remnants.

I know that it's still there.

The thirst of our people

for quick fix

solutions.

And that is why there's this

it's a frightening revelation

during the time of Duterte.

It's a frightening

revelation

that

you know,

people

accept

what it could accept

from a leader,

even if it's something

that violates

or breaks

the rule of law.

So it's frightening

because the people are

willing to accept

the kind of

setup, which is very

injurious to democracy.

I mean, we talked about, of course,

Mandela in South Africa and all.

I mean, we just had Argentina electing

their latest version of a populist,

right wing populist.

There's still a chance that someone like

Donald Trump may still come back to power

in the United States.

I mean, at the very least, I don't know if

this should make us feel better,

but it looks like Senator de Lima is like,

this is a global malaise, right?

It looks like people are losing faith

in democratic institutions,

whether it's in Argentina or in the United States.

In Netherlands, they just also elected

a far-right populist government.

So, mukhang hindi ito unique sa Pilipinas, right?

This is like the flavor of the decade,

if I can put it that way.

What do you have to say about the Senator de Lima?

Should that make us feel better or

that just underscores the enormity of challenge

we face in fledgling democracies

like the Philippines

as we try to fight for

civility and civil rights at the same time?

We just have to

continue doing that. We just have to be

to continue asserting the values

the ideals of democracy,

of rule of law,

of justice, notwithstanding

the trends that we're seeing

worldwide. Because

we know which is

a better system.

With all its loopholes, with all its pitfalls,

with all its imperfections,

it's still democracy.

Yeah.

That is the ideal

governmental setup.

All others

may be able to address

certain fleeting

problems and challenges

of a particular state

but

it won't last.

Because it yields,

it produces further

more serious problems

in a country.

Sir de Lima,

I'm not forcing you to be

a political analyst here, but are there

successful cases

or are there inspirational movements

or leaders that you think

could show us

the way forward? Whether

here in the Philippines, in Asia, in the US,

in the West? Are you looking at certain

let's say gold standards or

best practices perhaps to push back

against this authoritarian

populist, Dutertismo kind of

social political malice?

I'm sorry, I have nothing in mind.

I have nobody in mind at the moment.

I just have to

I'm so sorry

I put you on.

I know, I know.

No, I was just wondering while you were in

detention whether, I mean

what were you reading without

forcing you to divulge?

All sorts, all types of genre.

Serious stuffs, spiritual

stuffs, even

romantic stuffs,

detective novels,

etc. All types.

And I read several books at a time.

So

I read

books

and

even to me by my visitors.

So I have a hard time

choosing which ones to read first.

And because I have so

many choices.

Various types. There's a

variety of them.

Sir, is there like a five

favorite? I mean

I know it's so hard when you have read so much.

I mean a friend of ours said 1,000

books pa lang from his side.

I mean, if they're like top five you can choose

and recommend. I don't have my list.

I have a list but I don't have it now.

Top of your mind.

I don't

have it. Or are they like

authors or figures or something that

you want people to check out? If they're going also

through difficult moments. Maybe not as difficult as

yours but you know, I'm

sure. Kaya nga sabi ko lifestyle guru eh.

Lifestyle pa lang.

Sige sir.

I forward man lang sakin.

Now, Sen. Delima, I have another question.

Of course,

we are seeing some positive movements

in terms of your case.

Can you tell us a little bit about what are the

next steps you're looking forward to? I mean

many would say that it looks like your

full vindication is almost inevitable

but obviously we don't want to be complacent.

Can you tell us a little bit about

what are you looking forward to in terms of

the legal cases still

against you and are you

cautiously optimistic this will be resolved?

In the near future para yung full

vindication nyo is official more or less.

Although I think almost everyone believes

with exception of some groups,

some cult group na

everything was really politically motivated

as far as charges against you are concerned.

Yes, we're

confident about the last

about this last case.

I'm given provisional liberty

and

we're just waiting for the formal offer of evidence

of the prosecution and then

if the court resolves it, we will file

our demurrer to evidence.

And if it's granted,

then the case is dismissed. That is tantamount

to acquittal. We are confident

because after

the presentation of their

bail evidence, the bail

testimonies,

nothing of essence

or nothing of significance could be

added to the evidence that

were presented during the bail hearings.

And nothing could be added as

to be discussed further

in the judgment of the court

as would

reverse or

change its

finding of insufficiency

of evidence, its finding

of no conspiracy because

the charge is illegal conspiracy

to commit illegal

drug trading.

So, if

at the bail stage

of the case,

the court already found

no strong

evidence and if

nothing more significant

was presented

in the course of the presentation of the

evidence in chief,

then

Yeah, it looks like

the conclusion

would be the same.

Right. Almost.

No sufficient evidence

because the prosecution is the proof.

If it failed to do so at the bail stage,

what more this time?

So, we are

confident but still

cautiously optimistic

Yes. No room for complacency

on that front. Thank you also

Tori de Lima. I mean, you being a lawyer

also helps explaining

why you're cautiously optimistic

on this front. Now,

Sir de Lima, I mean,

let's talk about tormentors, right?

I mean, is the next phase here to go

against... Of course, it's one...

I mean, there are many unfortunate...

Unfortunately, many people fell for all of the

black propaganda and wars and

vulgarity that was deployed against you.

Ibang usapan yan. But there's some people who knew

very well that this was fake news,

this was a politically motivated

move, and yet they enabled it

or they were orchestrating it.

Are you gonna...

Is the next step here for Senator de Lima

to go after the tormentors? Because you talk about

democracy and institutions.

Democracy and institutions do not just

come out of nowhere. You have to fight

for them. And one of the ways is to fight

against people who are undermining

our judicial institutions. Yung mga

binababa yung mga institution natin.

Justice system natin. Is that the next

step, Senator de Lima? I mean,

sino ba sila? Dapat humanda na sila.

Definitely and absolutely we will file cases

against them. They have to be held

accountable for

my proposition.

Yet, state, aside from...

You know, I can already...

And there will be some others

that have to be held accountable for being

responsible for this,

the prosecution for persuading,

for coercing, for coming up

with those fabricated evidence,

those trumped up

testimonies from

the PDL

witnesses. So they use operators,

they use handlers

who approach, who talk to

these witnesses for them to falsely

testify against me.

So they

got to

be held

accountable.

Definitely

for a specific

legal action.