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00:00.0
Alright, good evening everyone. Finally, this interview's time has arrived. I've been looking forward to this for quite some time. Today, we have with us a former senator and of course, Atty. Layla Dalima. Kamusta po kayo, Atty.?
00:15.8
Oh, I'm fine. Very exhausting. For me, the past 12 days, it's been 12 days from my date of release. I still can't get over it. I'm still getting my bearings, so to speak. You know, just adjusting to the environment. I still feel disoriented from it all. I still miss my own cell there, my own bed there, the whole surroundings. It's really very disorienting.
00:45.1
Supposed to be...
00:45.8
The familiar things in my own home have become suddenly unfamiliar. So, I'm really still adjusting.
00:53.8
Actually, that's why, Senator, I didn't want to call it to you earlier because I know you wanted to spend time also with your family and loved ones. Of course, some of your loved ones are actually friends of mine over Twitter. We have been keeping in touch throughout the years. And as you may know, I mean, your case has been very, very close to our hearts. A lot of our common friends...
01:15.8
Some people know, actually, the other year, I almost had tears in my eyes. I had to control myself when I was talking about your predicament. But there was always an element of hope. I always look forward to this moment. And it looks like some of my prognostications about things turning in a better way has turned out. But before we go into your legal case and your broader hopes for Philippine democracy, certainly, I mean, the last time we met was when you were still in detention. I remember we discussed about...
01:43.3
Yes. You paid a visit. Yeah.
01:44.2
I know. We talked about...
01:45.8
Mandela. We talked about stoicism. We talked about faith and the scripture and Bible. So it was a very spiritual meeting. And to be honest, I was very touched by our meeting noon because I saw talagang strength of character nyo. And I was also very impressed na talagang maaliwalas kayo. I mean, considering everything you were going through. So there was this kind of an almost a soulful, parang beyond afraid na kayo. There was this kind of a spiritual aura there.
02:14.7
So how did you...
02:15.8
When you arrive at that, Senator De Lima, can you tell me first about kung baka mag-lifestyle guro tayo? Like if you're going to give advice on resilience, strength, and conviction, can you tell us your journey? Because this is really one of a kind.
02:28.1
My whole ordeal has really been liberating. And it's really all just a matter of attitude. You know, the correct mindset. Setting your right mindset on a daily basis. That you get to... You've got to have your daily ordeal, your daily...
02:45.8
Things to do must be set, must be scheduled. Keep yourself busy. And always have a purpose. Because you can never tell the next day you're no longer around. And you just have to make the most of every day, of every moment in life, in detention. So my routine has been very strict on a daily basis.
03:15.8
From the waking up hours and up to the last hours of the night until I get sleepy. From readings, because I have longer hours of reading. I have longer hours of praying compared to when I was still not in detention. And appreciating everything around you.
03:42.0
Even small blessings in life.
03:44.7
Even the simplest moments.
03:45.8
Even the simplest moments in life. You get to find joy in it. Because you have a very limited environment. Physical environment. So everything there seemed to be very important to you. Everything there seemed to be valuable to you. And everything there seemed to be... It's just your whole world now. So it's all important. You're not wasting time. You now realize which are the most essential things in your life. And which ones you can do without.
04:15.8
So simple, mundane things suddenly become valuable, essential matters to you. Simply because of your very limited and constrained life. And it's a matter of psyche. It's a matter of attitude. Dealing with it properly, with the right psychology.
04:41.1
Thank you very much.
04:43.1
Senator, can we go back to this?
04:44.7
I mean, how did you arrive at this kind of disciplined routine that carried you through those very difficult years? Because it's just a prospect of uncertainty. I remember the last time we were together, we were talking, parang hindi sure na you will ever be even be granted the bail. So how did you cope with it? How did you arrive at that routine?
05:05.4
Well, almost instantly. Just a few days from incarceration.
05:12.5
I told myself, I have to be busy. I have to have this routine. I have to do something. I cannot afford to be idle. I cannot afford to entertain negativism. I cannot afford to be distressed.
05:32.7
And so there's never been any moment that I feel depressed because that's what I was trying to avoid.
05:42.5
I would be lonely at times. I would even cry at times, especially the first few months, thinking about my family, thinking about my home, and thinking about why it happened to me. It was initially a feeling of utter disbelief of what happened to me, of what was done to me, that I've got to accept it, that now I'm in this situation, and I've got, as I said, deal with it properly, as best as I could.
06:42.5
But then almost martyr-like moments. So how did that psychological transition go through? Did something switch on in you, or suddenly there was a moment of spiritual awakening? I mean, what's going on?
06:55.1
The reason I'm asking is because we have another precedent, right? See, Ninoy. Ninoy was a very ambitious, successful politician, and then things went really wrong for him. Then suddenly something else came out of him, right?
07:07.3
People talk about the young Ninoy, and then the more wise, almost prophetic kind of Ninoy.
07:12.5
Did you also go through that kind of transition, or something switched on in you?
07:17.6
Well, definitely I had a palpable spiritual growth in confinement, because I had enough time, really, to pray, enough time to read the Bible, to do contemplative prayer, to do reflection.
07:35.8
So, deep in faith.
07:42.5
I would, devotional prayers, devotional readings, a lot of those, and so spiritual awakening. I wasn't that prayerful before. I hardly read Bible before.
08:00.4
Ninoy said exactly the same thing. I think Ninoy, he had interviews with 700 Club or something. He was not really a particular pious person, and then suddenly he realized, no? Yeah, there's something else in human life.
08:12.5
So, when I started praying, praying the rosary, contemplative prayers, and reading the Bible, the scriptures, then I could feel that spiritual growth in me, the purification process, the liberating, the feeling of liberation.
08:30.7
So, that is the awakening. That is the blessing. That is the blessing of the whole ordeal.
08:39.3
It is initially a curse, because I did not.
08:42.2
I didn't deserve to be in jail, but it turned out to be a blessing. Because of that, I became closer to God. I had conversations with God. I had intimate sessions with Him early evening after Angelus and before I wrote in my journal.
09:03.1
So, that's correct. The whole environment would lead you to that.
09:12.2
When you say liberation, spiritual liberation, is it also, you know, the fact that, you know, for year after year, you're thinking about the political landscape, you're thinking about your political survival, your political success, and then suddenly you can put all of that aside and go to the very fundamentals of what it is to live a life, you know, to be a righteous. Is it also that kind of, you know, just like casting away all of those everyday calculus and, you know, survival and all of that?
09:42.2
Fundamental existence and your worth as a Christian, as a Catholic. I was born a Christian. I was born and raised as a Catholic. I'm going back to the fundamentals, because in between, in the interlude, I was not really that faithful in the sense that, yes, I would go to Sunday masses, but not, you know, all other obligations were not there.
10:12.2
We're not being observed. Now, suddenly, because again of the environment, I was forced to go back to the basics as a Christian and as a Catholic. So, wala na muna yung iba. Let's just focus on this. To me, that's more important. When I was there, that's more important. Even I see that there were a lot of things happening outside in the political world, but I said, no.
10:42.2
Pakalam sa inyo. I want this moment. I want this situation that I have a direct line to God, that I'm very comfortable talking to Him, communicating with Him, and it feels just so good.
11:06.5
Yeah, yun nga, Senator. It's that kind of a sublime feeling.
11:12.2
It's that kind of a sublime aura that I noticed the last time we had that kind of conversation. Senator, you know, Attorney Delima, I have a question. What about the aspect, I mean, you talked a lot about, you know, recentering yourself and casting away all of those distractions and all, but what about the element of forgiveness and the element of, let's be honest, I mean, when everything turned on you, there was a lot of horrible things that happened.
11:42.2
There was a lot of horrible things being said, not only against you, but a lot of against anyone who tried to stand up to Duterte. I mean, all of us in our own little ways, you know, have been victim of that kind of Dutertismo ideology, whatever you want to call it. Of course, your case was the worst by far. And to be, I mean, honest, there were times I was wondering, di ko kilala yung mga aking mga kababayan. Like, how could they cheer on etong drug war na pumapatay ng mga ordinaryong people?
12:06.9
I couldn't believe some people who were saying horrible things about you or Maria Ressa or Riza Ontiveros. And like, parang hindi ko kilala itong bansa na ito. Hindi, eto yung mga kababayan na kilala. You get what I'm saying, Senator Delima? It was really difficult for me because mahal na mahal natin yung bayan natin. At mahal natin yung bayan natin dahil mahal natin yung mga kababayan natin. And then suddenly you're seeing this dark, ugly side of people, this mob kind of culture and all.
12:35.0
And it was really, it was not only scary, it was really disheartening and demoralizing. And I can imagine your case was thousand times worse than what a lot of us faced as anyone who dared to challenge Duterte on any issue. Can you tell us a little bit more about that, Attorney Delima? Like, how did you deal with the question of forgiveness and understanding yung kababayan natin? How could they turn that way? Because I never thought we could turn this way or I never thought I would in my lifetime.
13:03.4
So I can imagine it was probably even more shocking in your case.
13:08.9
Yes, unimaginable because, you know, the discourse that has afflicted our nation, which is the social media, you know, it has, you know, in many ways, it's even more frightening than the usual methods of cooptation and repression and even, you know, the bad habits and all that.
13:34.9
sa kabilyan niyan, hindi ko kasi kaya na hindi pa rin ako maniwala o magtiwala and have faith with our countrymen.
13:47.9
Because I knew and I felt and I believed that in the end, most of the Filipino people would still know or would still be able to discern
13:60.0
the color, you know, the color of God's name that is God's name.
14:00.2
The color of God's name.
14:00.3
The color of God's name.
14:00.4
The color of God's name.
14:00.4
You know, the color of God's name.
14:00.4
The color of God's name.
14:00.5
good from the bad.
14:02.8
So in spite of that, because of the
14:04.3
various influences, and then we have the kind
14:06.5
of leader that we had since
14:11.1
that created that kind
14:14.7
of political environment
14:30.1
personalities, and I was
14:32.0
the chief target of that leader,
14:34.8
then you can't blame
14:36.1
some people who are
14:39.9
gullible enough to accept
14:42.2
those lies, those
14:44.0
vilifications, to believe
14:50.2
Now, as I said, I never
14:52.1
lost faith in the Filipino people
14:54.0
that in the end, they
14:56.8
that all this are simply
15:02.8
and the forgiveness,
15:06.2
the scriptures teach us
15:11.1
Our scriptures even tell us,
15:15.3
our enemies, although that is a bit too difficult.
15:18.0
That is too much for me to love
15:19.7
enemies. Forgiveness, I
15:21.8
think is enough, but
15:23.4
forgiveness also,
15:29.1
so that you would have
15:31.0
no further burdens
15:34.0
because if you keep
15:42.7
then you will suffer
15:45.8
and even health-wise.
15:48.6
So, ikaw din ang magsasuffer
15:50.3
kung palagi kang may kinikimkim.
15:53.1
Yun ang palagi kong iniisip. Anyway,
15:55.9
Bahala, and I would always
15:59.6
God, dear God, please
16:01.6
give them the grace
16:03.9
to understand what is true
16:07.3
and what is right. And God,
16:10.4
give me the grace
16:11.4
to forgive these people.
16:19.9
I mean, of course, I mean, even in the
16:22.0
scripture, you know, we see how the Israelites
16:24.3
sometimes were led,
16:25.9
I mean, when Moses was
16:28.0
just receiving the Ten Commandments,
16:30.0
a lot of things were happening down there, right?
16:32.2
And, of course, what happened also to Jesus
16:34.0
Christ, no? I mean, the kind of
16:36.1
mob attack and the horrible
16:38.1
things done to him, you know, before his
16:42.3
right? So, we have a lot of that.
16:44.7
But, you're also right. I mean,
16:46.0
for me, attorney, one of the ways
16:48.1
I tried to understand this was
16:49.9
grievance, no? I mean,
16:52.0
I think a lot of our Kababayan were just so frustrated
16:54.3
with a lot of things that didn't go right.
16:55.9
This is not necessarily on, you know, the Aquino
16:57.9
administration or your
16:59.8
tenure. It's just, you know, all the
17:01.7
broken or half-fulfilled promises
17:03.9
after the collapse of the Marcos dictatorship.
17:06.3
So, ako sabi ko, marami diyan
17:08.0
mga, ano lang, frustrated lang sila
17:09.9
and that has, unfortunately, made them more susceptible
17:12.1
to this politics of hatred
17:14.0
and fear and grievance that
17:16.0
Dutertismo represented.
17:17.8
But, similar to you, I get your point,
17:21.8
which is, you know, this is an
17:23.6
unfortunate face, but perhaps it's
17:25.9
part of the maturation of our democracy
17:27.7
and maturation of, you know, political
17:29.9
consciousness among yung mga Kababayan natin.
17:32.0
I mean, I can tell you personally, like,
17:34.2
six, seven years ago, I would have
17:35.8
doubted that, you know, people, thousands of people
17:37.7
would be interested in political analysis
17:40.1
in the way we do. And now, I see more and more people
17:41.9
interested. So, unfortunately, it was a difficult
17:44.0
transition process, but I think it was
17:45.8
unfortunate, or perhaps, it's just inevitable.
17:48.3
It's part of the maturation
17:49.9
process. Now, Senator Dalima, I have
17:51.8
another question. I mean,
17:53.8
obviously, you know, we can talk about Jesus Christ,
17:55.9
and what he had to go through, you know, to
17:57.8
fight for truth, and to fulfill
18:04.0
there were also, you know, political figures
18:05.9
like Mandela, among others, who also went
18:07.9
through very, very difficult moments,
18:10.3
and eventually, they came out triumphant
18:12.1
and became a kind of an archetype
18:14.3
of martyr, political leader,
18:16.2
and democratic icon all at once.
18:18.4
To what degree were you inspired
18:19.9
by the experiences of these people, without, of course,
18:22.1
anyone being presumptuous? I mean, we're just
18:23.8
talking about role models
18:25.9
that you were, biographies, were there
18:27.5
biographies you were reading of
18:30.8
Mandela, of course, were top of the list.
18:33.4
Were top of the list. I cannot cite
18:35.5
any other, because I've been reading a lot,
18:37.7
and there's been really a lot of
18:39.5
role models. And anyone
18:41.5
who would stand for truth,
18:43.6
anyone who would stand for
18:45.3
democracy, there are several
18:47.3
democracy icons, there are several
18:49.4
who would stand up for
18:50.6
social justice. So,
18:53.5
I would not really, I'm not
18:55.5
that type of person who would
19:05.2
that I take examples
19:07.6
from even from ordinary people
19:16.9
to make a difference
19:21.5
Now, if we can go back,
19:23.4
backslide to our discussion on
19:25.4
the state of democracy
19:27.3
and then the political
19:28.7
climate, I'd like to
19:34.1
what's happening now is
19:40.8
The political state of our country
19:42.8
is a process of normalization
19:51.5
disruption that was
19:53.5
the Duterte regime.
19:57.6
a time to strengthen
20:03.2
destroyed. And again,
20:05.5
that's why I've been
20:08.7
this administration
20:10.8
in its respect for the rule of law
20:13.8
and the judiciary
20:15.2
because it would aid
20:17.6
greatly in restoring the people's
20:19.5
faith in the judiciary.
20:26.2
have seen the cost
20:31.3
experiment with a leader
20:40.0
more than the number of years
20:42.7
of his term as president.
20:45.6
He has demolished a lot of
20:50.3
and even cultural values.
20:56.0
all administrations
21:10.9
our national polity
21:14.6
because that to me is a
21:17.1
malaise, a malaise
21:18.5
that should never happen
21:26.7
his running for the Senate
21:33.4
Bipisara is impeached
21:35.6
I've read about it in the papers
21:40.4
I know that there's still
21:42.9
remnants, I know that it's still there
21:47.0
of our people for quick fix
21:57.3
a frightening revelation
21:59.9
during the time of Duterte
22:01.6
it's a frightening
22:13.0
what it could accept
22:15.8
even if it's something
22:25.8
because the people
22:32.0
which is very injurious
22:38.1
we talked about, of course,
22:39.1
Mandela in South Africa
22:40.6
I mean, we just had Argentina
22:42.8
latest version of a populist
22:44.5
right-wing populist.
22:46.2
There's still a chance
22:47.3
that someone like
22:48.1
Donald Trump may still
22:49.2
come back to power
22:50.1
in the United States.
22:52.4
at the very least,
22:53.3
this should make us
22:55.6
but it looks like
22:56.7
Senator De Lima is like
22:59.7
It looks like people are
23:01.8
in democratic institutions
23:03.0
whether it's in Argentina
23:04.3
or in the United States.
23:06.5
they just also elected
23:08.0
populist government.
23:11.1
unique sa Pilipinas, right?
23:12.7
This is like the flavor
23:14.7
if I can put it that way.
23:16.6
What do you have to say
23:18.6
Should that make us feel better
23:23.7
in fledgling democracies
23:25.1
like the Philippines
23:25.9
as we try to fight
23:30.1
at the same time?
23:32.5
continue doing that.
23:33.4
We just have to be
23:34.1
to continue asserting
23:44.2
that we're seeing
23:48.7
which is a better
23:50.7
with all its loopholes
23:52.4
with all its pitfalls
23:53.9
with all its imperfections
24:28.6
I'm not forcing you
24:30.4
to be a political analyst here
24:31.5
but are there like
24:34.3
or are there like
24:35.5
inspirational movements
24:39.6
show us the way forward
24:42.6
in the Philippines
24:45.0
are you looking at certain
24:46.6
let's say gold standards
24:49.5
perhaps to push back
24:51.1
this authoritarian
24:58.5
I have no one in mind
25:08.2
I was just wondering
25:08.9
while you were in
25:12.2
what were you reading
25:16.3
all types of genre
25:40.1
so I have a hard time
25:42.0
choosing which ones
25:45.5
because I have so many choices
25:51.7
is there like a five
25:56.3
I know it's so hard
25:57.2
when you have read so much
25:58.5
a friend of ours said
25:59.5
one thousand books
26:02.5
if they're like top five
26:05.0
I don't have my list
26:07.4
but I don't have it now
26:17.5
or are there like
26:20.6
or something like that
26:20.8
or people to check out
26:21.4
if they're going also
26:22.3
through difficult moments
26:23.2
maybe not as difficult
26:26.5
that's why I said
26:29.3
I'll check out my list
26:33.0
if you forward it to me
26:34.7
I have another question
26:38.8
some positive movements
26:40.0
in terms of your case
26:43.3
a little bit about
26:43.9
what are the next steps
26:44.8
you're looking forward to
26:47.1
that it looks like
26:48.1
your full vindication
26:49.1
is almost inevitable
26:51.2
you don't want to be complacent
26:53.8
a little bit about
26:54.5
what are you looking forward to
26:56.0
in terms of the legal
26:58.4
still against you
26:59.7
are you cautiously optimistic
27:01.3
this will be resolved
27:02.3
in the near future
27:03.5
so that your full vindication
27:07.4
almost everyone believes
27:08.6
with exception of some groups
27:12.1
everything was really
27:13.6
politically motivated
27:15.3
charges against you
27:16.6
is it very confident
27:23.1
provisional liberty
27:25.4
we're just waiting
27:26.9
for the formal offer
27:28.3
of the prosecution
27:29.1
and then if the court
27:33.5
and if it's granted
27:35.1
then the case is dismissed
27:37.2
that is tantamount
27:41.5
after the presentation
27:47.3
nothing of essence
27:54.4
during the bail hearings
27:55.6
and nothing could be added
27:57.9
as to be discussed further
28:01.2
of the court later
28:13.3
because the charge
28:37.0
of the presentation
28:46.2
would be the same
28:51.6
because the prosecution
28:53.9
if it failed to do so
28:55.3
at the bail stage
29:04.9
no room for complacency
29:09.5
you being a lawyer
29:11.9
why you're cautiously
29:13.5
optimistic on this front
29:30.9
that was deployed
29:45.4
for senator delima
29:52.8
come out of nowhere
29:53.5
you have to fight
29:54.8
and one of the ways
29:57.2
who are undermining
29:58.1
our judicial institutions
30:00.1
binababo yung mga
30:01.2
institutions natin
30:01.9
yung justice system natin
30:03.7
is that the next step
30:07.3
dapat umanda na sila
30:11.8
cases against them
30:28.2
and there will be
30:39.0
fabricated evidence
30:51.7
to these witnesses
31:43.9
fundamental problem
31:46.2
strong institutions
00:00.0
33:19.180 --> 33:20.180
41:55.1
decriminalization
42:15.9
decriminalization
48:25.1
sabi mo sa kanila
48:37.1
mahihingi sa kanila
48:39.6
I'm not in a position
48:59.2
I really don't have
49:59.5
mamamatay na tayo
50:06.5
so I started praying
50:11.0
and my additional
50:28.5
I'm bleeding to death
50:39.5
he made a mistake
50:40.7
of asking for water
50:42.0
and it so happened
50:44.2
the director was there
50:55.8
papatayin niyo ako
50:56.7
because he doesn't want to
50:58.0
he didn't want to leave me
51:01.4
I was sitting down
51:03.2
with my hand tied
51:05.5
with my feet tied
51:09.7
consistently here
51:12.1
he would push it hard
51:13.7
and I would shout
51:23.0
that's when I said
51:24.9
he made a mistake
51:36.7
si director Pes Pes
51:47.1
the glass of water
52:05.4
I didn't see when
52:06.8
since I was blindfolded
52:12.1
I was blindfolded
52:14.0
my hands were tied
52:15.4
my feet were tied
52:16.7
and I was sitting
52:21.1
I didn't even know
52:24.0
he was being handed
52:33.7
the next thing I knew
52:36.3
that happened was
52:46.5
so it was an instant death
52:49.3
and I was taken out
52:59.7
so it was a harrowing
53:02.4
so they had to bring me
53:16.0
Senator for asking that
53:17.5
because that was one of the
53:20.8
we were extremely worried
53:22.7
and we were also extremely
53:25.2
I mean what are the
53:26.1
broader implications here
53:33.7
a complete accident
53:34.5
or you're wondering
53:36.2
maybe there was a foul play
53:38.4
wishy-washy things
53:40.7
reflected on that aspect
53:43.0
because some were
53:43.5
wondering if you were
53:44.7
thinking about it
53:45.8
I've been thinking about it
53:46.9
there is a theory
54:02.0
because how could they
54:03.9
how could they have
54:09.0
or how could they ever think
54:11.5
the custodial center
54:13.2
without a human shield
54:21.2
most high profile
54:27.4
it's something else
54:30.5
there's something else
54:36.4
it's hard to prove
54:39.1
it's a possibility
54:41.8
but only a speculation
54:48.4
do you think after
54:50.8
yet another ordeal
54:54.7
that you have a mission
54:55.9
that there's this
54:57.4
after in your life
54:59.8
something as close as that
55:02.3
you were already going
55:04.1
spiritual awakening
55:05.2
and transformation
55:08.3
did you feel that
55:09.4
maybe God really has a mission
55:11.6
that I have to really
55:12.4
fight for something
55:13.3
and be someone after this
55:17.5
that if it's your time
55:27.2
dapat akong gawin
55:30.9
I do believe that
55:40.2
some mission in life
55:42.2
Thank you very much
55:45.5
I wanted to ask you more
55:46.7
about what's next
55:48.3
but I know you want to rest
55:51.3
completely settled yet
55:52.8
I don't want to come off as
55:56.1
and your kindness
55:57.5
for sharing your time with me
56:00.1
if I brought back
56:00.9
some of this trauma
56:01.6
but let me tell you
56:03.5
lahat kami nagmamahal sayo
56:05.1
we have been praying for you
56:09.0
just the word joy
56:10.1
doesn't even capture
56:10.9
having this opportunity
56:12.0
having this conversation with me
56:15.1
in the near future
56:16.1
we can have a chance
56:16.9
to catch up together
56:21.3
I would love that
56:23.0
I would love that
56:23.8
you're such an inspiration
56:27.3
I really really mean it
56:28.9
you're such an inspiration
56:32.6
so I didn't have a chance
56:34.7
see the Ninoy Aquino
56:36.5
moment and all of that
56:37.7
thank you for all
56:45.2
the fight for democracy
56:46.5
is a fight for solidarity
56:48.2
we have many heroes
56:49.1
who have their own heroism
56:50.6
but it's really about
56:51.2
bringing people together
56:52.4
and I hope that you
56:53.5
will be the center of gravity
56:54.6
for a new generation
56:56.7
great heroic leaders
56:59.3
thank you so much
57:00.9
everyone is praying
57:02.5
everyone loves you
57:03.2
and everyone is expressing
57:04.4
their best wishes for you
57:06.4
so please take care of yourself
57:07.5
and please forgive me
57:09.7
it's been a pleasure
57:13.3
and I do want to see you also
57:18.0
thank you so much
57:18.8
thank you so much
57:21.7
thank you so much
