00:51.6
As you know, I have my own thoughts on that, and we exchange thoughts.
00:55.6
With our common friends, among others, Ronald Llamas, who owes me a lot, and Christian Esguerra as his talent managers.
01:02.8
We got the guy famous, no? So, suddenly, everyone is looking for him and sinanalysis. So, let's see.
01:08.9
Kasi sumisingil na si Ronald. Wait lang, wait lang. I didn't charge you for my talent management pa at publicity campaign na me and Christian Esguerra did for you.
01:17.5
Now, Walden, things are looking interesting, to put it in a, I don't know, in a quite dialectical way.
01:24.0
But if not, in more political.
01:25.6
Political sense of the word.
01:26.8
Now, so, the Lima is out, and it looks like, I mean, we had an interview last week, it looks like she's very confident that the last legal threads, no, are going to be untethered pretty soon, and then she will be most likely on the offensive now, no?
01:42.2
How do you feel about the Lima situation, considering you guys have a very good friendship throughout the years?
01:47.1
I know you have been source of a lot of books and advice, and she has written a lot of letters to you, handwritten letters.
01:52.2
I remember back in the day, because, you know, she was writing all of us, but you were among her.
01:55.6
She was one of her favorite interlocutors.
01:57.7
Can you tell us a little bit about that, your friendship with Senator de Lima?
02:01.4
Oh, well, you know, I had worked with Senator de Lima on, when I was the head of the House Committee on Overseas Workers.
02:11.3
And we were trying to get, to penalize a number of...
02:25.6
Philippine Dole officials abroad that were involved with what is called the transport flight scandal.
02:35.9
Basically taking advantage sexually of our OFWs.
02:41.4
And I worked very closely, and she was very, very committed.
02:45.7
So I was not that particularly close, but when Duterte started to slap this crazy...
02:55.6
You know, that she was part of the whole drug ring.
02:59.6
I knew immediately that this was a frame-up, because I had worked with her.
03:07.0
And, you know, I had worked with her, so there was, to me, it was just a frame-up, and it was silly.
03:15.4
And so, that's why, from the very beginning, I was really quite supportive of her.
03:25.6
I wrote articles, both nationally and internationally, in support of her.
03:29.9
And just calling it a spade a spade, which was a Duterte frame-up.
03:36.9
And so, and at the same time, I analyzed what happened, and I think there were two things that I think occurred here.
03:49.1
One was the Duterte strategy, its evil genius of raking up...
03:55.6
You know, misogynistic attacks on her, which was, of course, carried out in the house by people like Roque.
04:08.0
And, you know, that was, you know, it was appealing to this misogynistic kind of subliminal things in Filipinos.
04:22.1
And that was one thing.
04:23.6
The second thing was just...
04:25.6
How completely, you know, blitzkrieg talaga eh.
04:30.1
And, you know, I mean, charging the Secretary of Justice as being the center of the drug ring in the Philippines.
04:35.8
I think that even if some people initially thought it was crazy, just the mere effrontery of this sort of destabilized them.
04:47.1
And sort of gave doubts that, oh my God, is this...
04:53.9
Is there credibility to this?
04:55.6
So, na-destabilize yung mga tao na who had not worked with the Lima.
05:02.2
And then thirdly, and I think the Senator has pointed it out, that she was so disappointed that many of her political friends did not come to her rescue.
05:17.1
And I think part of it was that they feared that they would be next if they sided with...
05:25.6
So, you know, so I think that's sort of the way that I analyzed the whole situation.
05:34.7
So, but I was very happy to work with Senator de Lima.
05:41.2
And as you know, she was deprived of phone.
05:47.0
And she had very limited TV viewing hours.
05:50.9
So, you know, since I, you know, I basically...
05:55.6
I really tried to get as many books as possible to her.
05:59.4
I believe I must have gotten some 800 to 1,000 titles into Kamkrame.
06:08.4
And I think she...
06:11.6
That's a big operation.
06:12.5
That's a big operation.
06:16.3
She wanted to be an...
06:17.8
She had filled the whole barracks with 1,000 books.
06:20.2
Well, she wanted to be an expert not only on the law, but on economics, on political science.
06:25.6
She wanted novels.
06:27.9
So, you know, from fiction to Thomas Piketty to, you know, Arundhati Roy.
06:37.5
Well, that was, you know, I realized that this was the stuff that would keep her mind going
06:44.7
and prevent her from going into gloom or depression.
06:51.8
So, that's it, you know.
06:55.6
And I was very, very happy.
06:57.1
And I was in the court when she got freed.
07:00.1
And so, I was very happy.
07:01.5
It was a joyous occasion that we finally, finally stopped the Duterte machine that had framed her.
07:11.2
I mean, Walden, the reason I ask about this is because I know you're a man of very high threshold.
07:16.5
You know, you don't easily get impressed, especially by politicians and statesmen, like, you know, in besieged democracies like the Philippines.
07:23.5
So, you know, I always wondered, like...
07:25.6
Where is this admiration for Leila de Lima coming from?
07:29.0
I mean, I would...
07:29.6
I mean, if it's from, you know, usual folks, liberal party folks or, you know, folks from the Aquino administration, I understand it.
07:36.4
But, you know, the more I talk to people, including Ronald Llamas, who was in the Aquino administration, political advisor,
07:41.8
I hear so many good things about her.
07:43.8
You know, I talk to people who have been active in civil society and human rights campaigns.
07:48.5
And they told me now when she was the head of the Commission on Human Rights, when she was the justice secretary,
07:53.4
she really held the ground, right?
07:55.6
She really held the line and she really fought for it.
07:58.6
So, she's a consistently authentic person committed to it.
08:01.9
Kaya, I wanted to ask, where is your story coming from?
08:05.9
Because, I mean, Walden, I mean, you know, we interviewed Senator de Lima the other week
08:10.7
and we can talk about that a little bit more later on.
08:13.1
The thing is, there's so much the rumor meal, the dark Marites meal against her has been grinding through and through
08:22.2
and until even today, you know, and some are saying that,
08:24.4
oh, baka she's just getting scot-free because etong administration naman ayaw kay Digong,
08:29.1
which we're going to talk about later on.
08:30.6
So, you know, that's the problem, no?
08:32.7
The kind of the gables, the Nazi kind of problem, which is when you spread lies over and over again
08:38.4
for a thousand times, a million times in this case, you know, it leaves a certain damage.
08:43.7
And for me, you are among people that I consider as a moral compass.
08:48.5
So, ako, parating ko sinisabi, if Walden has a respect for that person, there must be something special with that person.
08:53.5
And by the way, this is...
08:54.4
This is completely independent from my own track of engagement with Leila Delima.
08:58.5
But the thing is, Walden, of course, sino ba naman ako?
09:00.3
I mean, I'm just whatever journalist academic out there.
09:03.1
So, I ask you, I ask Ronald, I ask other people who also know her, know her better, way better than me.
09:09.3
Although, of course, all of us visited her throughout the years and ako, I have high regards for her.
09:14.8
So, thank you for, you know, telling us your side of the story and not her testimony to why Senator Delima is really something special.
09:21.8
I remember back in the day, Delima...
09:22.8
I mean, the first time that she really caught my attention and I realized there's something special about this person is,
09:28.1
remember yung naka-issue siya with one big church?
09:30.8
And then, I think this was 2015, right?
09:33.8
And then, you know, ETSA was being blocked or something like that.
09:37.9
And a former president actually did not drop by her birthday not long after that incident.
09:42.7
So, like, noon pa lang makikita mo na she was really walking ahead of the crowd, if I can put it that way, right?
09:48.3
I mean, she's really an independent minor person.
09:49.8
Doon mo na kita matapang talaga tong taong to eh.
09:52.2
And I just met her weeks before all the hit job black ops against her started in the Philippine Senate.
09:58.5
There was an awarding ceremony, I was there.
10:00.3
And, you know, she was still jolly and sprightly and, you know, go lang siya ng go.
10:05.1
And later on, I also visited her in 2019 onwards when she was incarcerated.
10:10.3
But my point is, you know, I had my own take on this.
10:12.9
But to hear it from people like you na alam ko hindi ka madali mabullshit, sorry to say it,
10:18.5
na mataas ang threshold mo for respect, that is very encouraging.
10:22.2
Let's go to the next part of the discussion here.
10:24.1
Now, you and Leila de Lima are in the same league on a whole range of issues,
10:29.4
including the fact that both of you are awardees for your contributions to human rights by Amnesty International,
10:35.3
if I'm not mistaken, right?
10:36.2
I think she was the inaugural one.
10:37.9
And you're, like, the first one who's more of, like, an economic justice kind of human rights advocate
10:43.4
that has been celebrated.
10:46.3
Were you, how should I put it?
10:48.4
Like, do you, did you see that?
10:50.8
Like, you and de Lima will be,
10:52.2
more or less, in the same camp,
10:53.2
considering that, like, she worked in a liberal administration that you bashed a lot.
10:56.8
You had fights with Aquino, back and forth.
10:59.7
Napikon sa'yo si Aquino.
11:01.3
Hanggang ngayon, daming pikon sa'yo ng mga liberals.
11:03.5
Nagalit din sa akin ngayon.
11:04.9
And they'll say, oh, it makes sense.
11:06.4
Of course, Richard Walden, mga niyan, mga pasawa yan.
11:09.9
So, can you tell us a little bit about that?
11:11.6
Like, you and Leila are kind of considering the same kind of circles and camps nowadays
11:15.8
in terms of your advocacy, yung passion nyo, and your independence of thought and conviction.
11:19.6
Yeah, well, you know, I mean,
11:25.5
well, you're right.
11:28.2
I became critical of the Liberal Party,
11:31.2
especially when it was playing double standards.
11:35.6
It was going after enemies,
11:38.1
while at the same time, being very tolerant of its people,
11:44.3
despite the fact that they were engaging in,
11:53.4
And, you know, especially, you know, when we had that,
11:58.5
that special fund.
12:01.9
Disbursement Acceleration Program?
12:03.7
Is that your issue?
12:05.6
Yeah, the Disbursement Acceleration Program.
12:10.9
that was, that was there.
12:14.6
I mean, if you are,
12:16.2
if you are part of a coalition,
12:19.6
with an administration,
12:21.0
and the main platform that you have is anti-corruption,
12:25.8
and you allow your people to be corrupt,
12:31.1
So, I even, I got into,
12:34.6
unfortunately, I got into difficulties with my own party at Bayan,
12:39.8
because I was intent, really, on calling the president on his double standards.
12:49.3
So, and that's the reason that I finally resigned,
12:52.9
because I could no longer from the House of Representatives,
12:56.1
because I could no longer tolerate the double standards of President Aquino.
13:02.1
But, when it came...
13:03.8
Well, then, sorry.
13:04.3
But, I think the last straw was really Mama Sapana, right?
13:08.5
I think that's, that's really where...
13:11.1
Well, there were several things.
13:12.3
One, the most important thing was the Disbursement Acceleration Program and the double standards there.
13:18.8
Yeah, yeah. That was there. Well, there were several things. One, the most important thing was the Disbursement Acceleration Program and the double standards there.
13:19.2
The second thing was the EDCA, the, you know, the Enhanced Cooperation,
13:28.6
a military cooperation with the United States, which I opposed.
13:35.4
And I became very public about that in an interview with Karen Dabula.
13:40.7
You know, I think the president really, really got pissed off, called me more opposition than the opposition.
13:46.5
Oh, wow. I didn't know that. Really? It's EDCA?
13:49.2
Yeah. He called me...
13:51.2
He was asking stuff with you, Pinoy?
13:53.2
Yeah, yeah. And then, of course, Mama Sapana, I basically said, this is command responsibility.
13:59.4
Hey, you know, John F. Kennedy ka naman, accept command responsibility. Eh, takot, no?
14:06.1
Because, you know, for some reason, you know, he probably was advised by his lawyers that you, if you admit responsibility here, that will mean legal case, you know?
14:18.7
Against legal... No, no. But a leader should really accept responsibility.
14:22.7
Eh, sasabihin mo yung commander on the ground of an operation that you authorized, that it's really the commander in the ground that made the, you know, of the big error.
14:33.6
You can't do that. In any event, let me just say, Richard, that the exception to me was Laila de Lima.
14:42.2
Why? Because, let me go back again, I worked with her on trying to bring to justice...
14:48.7
Department of Labor employees that were preying sexually on our, on our OFWs, which, you know, very well, at that point in time, you were working with me, and we were trying to get, we were trying to bring justice.
15:11.3
And Laila de Lima, Laila de Lima attended their meetings. She was very supportive.
15:18.7
Wanted to bring justice to our OFWs. So, my personal experience talaga ako na hindi lang yung she was tough when it came to human rights violations, investigating Duterte, but you could see that she really had a lot of sympathy and for, you know, to accomplish justice for our ordinary Filipinos abroad who were being screwed up by their own...
15:48.7
government officials. So, a personal experience like that, it really generates a lot of respect.
15:57.0
Kaya, as I said, Richard, nung inumpisan nila Duterte and Roque and Dick Gordon and all those crazy people, when they started accusing de Lima and of this, you know...
16:10.7
Dick Gordon, no? Yeah, he helped.
16:14.0
Yeah, I forgot that. Kasi later sa Farmali, nakiki-opposition na sila later on, diba?
16:18.7
Yeah, yeah. No, no, but... I remember Harry Roque a lot, yeah.
16:21.5
Yeah, yeah. No, Dick Gordon helped in the ouster of Laila de Lima from the House Committee on Justice.
16:29.8
He played the central... Senate, Senate, yeah, yeah. Senate Committee on Justice.
16:33.1
Yeah, in the Senate. He played the central role. But there was... Yes, yes, yes. He was the chair. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember. Yeah, yeah.
16:39.0
There was that whole conspiracy and, you know, you cannot stomach a deliberate frame-up like that, you know?
16:47.0
And, you know, so...
16:48.7
I do hope that Laila will get justice, not only on the Dutertes, but also on all the people who assisted in framing her up.
17:04.5
And I would put Roque is one of those.
17:09.8
Harry Roque, you mean?
17:11.7
There are many Roque there, but the most infamous is Harry.
17:15.8
And then, of course, people like Richard.
17:18.7
Richard Gordon, you know?
17:20.8
And you remember...
17:24.0
Richard, sabi mo, like, wait, wait, what?
17:27.5
Yeah, Dick Gordon.
17:28.7
No, he's Dick Gordon.
17:29.9
Sorry, don't use Richard.
17:31.7
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, he's my classmate and, you know, that sort of thing.
17:36.6
You cannot participate in a frame-up and not be called on it, you know?
17:42.3
So, I hope that now that the wheels of justice are moving,
17:48.7
you know, forward instead of backward,
17:52.6
I do hope that these people get prosecuted for the role they played
17:57.1
in the biggest frame-up in Philippine legal history.
18:01.9
You know, talaga, frame-up talaga.
18:03.9
You know, I mean, and, you know, you just don't take seven years of somebody's life
18:09.3
and expect forgiveness, no.
18:16.0
Well, I mean, obviously, you know, just in the interest of...
18:18.7
For fairness, you know, our other guests had different take on the disbursement acceleration program.
18:23.3
So, we're saying this was a way to facilitate making sure na hindi lang, you know,
18:28.0
wasted yung mga underspending and all of that.
18:31.3
But on the issue of the Mama Sapano, we also had as guests Mayor Magalong, right?
18:37.7
Who was really, really strong in terms of his criticism of how the Aquino administration handled that.
18:44.1
So, probably, I think on the Mama Sapano one, I think we share more in common.
18:48.7
But I get your point in terms of hypocrisies of liberals, not only in the Philippines,
18:52.8
but all around the world.
18:53.7
We're also seeing that, you know, now in light of, you know, what's happening, the latest conflicts, no?
18:59.5
Well, then, going back to this, I interviewed, when I interviewed Layla last week,
19:05.0
I asked her about your case in particular and the issue of...
19:08.8
Because now we're talking about the wheels of justice somehow moving in the right direction, no?
19:14.1
Clockwise rather than counterclockwise.
19:17.0
And there was some...
19:18.7
There was some sort of connection problems.
19:19.8
I don't know if it was on her side, on my side,
19:22.2
but parang may problema talaga sa connection niya because even the Christian Esguerra interview,
19:26.0
I think she also had some...
19:27.3
But what she was clear about is she is categorically for decriminalization of libel,
19:33.5
cyber libel, all sorts of libel and all.
19:35.5
And obviously, this was in light of your case.
19:38.1
How do you feel about your case without betraying, you know, your legal strategy and all?
19:42.7
Can you just tell us a little bit about your perspective on your own legal predicament right now?
19:48.7
And what are your hopes in terms of the near future or so in terms of prospect of you also getting justice,
19:54.4
you know, in ways that Layla is getting also right now, yeah?
19:58.2
Well, I think Layla is a good example here because, you know,
20:05.0
she could have been freed as in the previous program that you had.
20:10.3
She could have been freed a year ago if she only agreed to house arrest, you know?
20:18.7
But that would have meant, you know, in her view, an admission of guilt, no?
20:24.9
And she wanted things to be really clear, so she didn't...
20:28.7
I mean, of course, nobody wants to be in jail, but she was willing to remain in jail until she got bail.
20:39.1
And of course, when you get bail, you don't, you know, it's not an admission of guilt.
20:44.1
It's, you know, it's something that every citizen has the right to.
20:48.7
So, you know, she was firm on that.
20:51.0
No admission of guilt.
20:52.7
As for me, no, there's no admission of guilt.
20:55.5
I mean, I think the vice president's case of cyber libel against me is pure harassment in the midst of a political campaign.
21:06.9
Why do you say it's the vice president?
21:09.0
I think you're pertaining to a staff member of hers, right?
21:12.1
Which now is in a senior position again, right?
21:15.5
I mean, can you tell us a little bit about that?
21:17.3
Why do you say it's Sarah?
21:18.7
Well, my sense is that it's the vice president's camp.
21:22.9
That has always been my formulation.
21:26.0
But it's the vice president's camp.
21:28.1
I mean, how can you divorce the press officer while she was mayor and now her key press officer in the vice presidential office and in the education?
21:45.3
How can you divorce that from her?
21:48.7
The vice president herself.
21:50.3
So, I cannot see this person who filed the case against me, who's a very close aide, not having done it without the blessings of the vice president.
22:04.0
And remember, Richard, this was in the midst of the campaign and I was just trying to bring to the voters her actual record as vice mayor.
22:16.3
And, you know, so what was...
22:18.7
What was the counterattack?
22:19.6
The counterattack was file a cyber libel case against me.
22:23.9
The Davao City Council declared me persona non grata.
22:29.6
The party of the vice president labeled me a narco politician.
22:35.0
So, you know, one, two, three, just for saying that this is the record of vice president, of mayor Duterte.
22:46.7
And she needs to come.
22:48.7
She needs to come out in a national debate to be able to clear up things.
22:53.8
I mean, you know, that's the reason we have debates during the vice presidential and presidential thing.
23:01.5
But, you know, that's why if you're going to say participate in a debate, then you have, you know, part of appealing to the voters is telling the voters that I am the one who deserves this.
23:18.7
You know, I'm the one who deserves to be the vice president because my opponent's record is quite bad.
23:24.8
I mean, that's the gist of a debate.
23:26.9
But if the person doesn't want to show up because she cannot defend her record, then that's, you know, that was the whole essence of the thing was instead of showing up in a debate, they had a cyber libel case against me, declared me persona non grata, called me a narco politician.
23:44.1
It was really, you know, a hindifarian, hindifarian.
23:48.7
So, back to your point, I cannot conceive of this press officer working closely with the Vice President
23:58.8
going after me without the blessings of the Vice President.
24:05.0
Thank you, Walden, also for adjusting kasi medyo mababa ka masyado.
24:08.5
Can you adjust your screen?
24:10.0
Yeah, yeah, sure.
24:10.5
Thank you for that.
24:11.4
Yeah, because I was a bit concerned about that.
24:13.1
Make sure we want to see you while you're making the impassioned intervention.
24:17.3
Because I think, you know, well, I know you, Walden, you know, you're, you're, you're, ano, ano,
24:23.7
how should I put it?
24:26.1
Minsan, you know, sutil ka rin.
24:27.6
Like, you know, like me.
24:28.4
Like, you know, sometimes sutil ka rin.
24:29.7
And my sense is baka that was your way of, you know, you referring to a certain report
24:35.5
about showing the paucity of the claim na drug-free ang ganitong.
24:39.9
I think, was that also about, you know, hinahamon mo siya na magdebate sa'yo?
24:45.4
Yeah, my sense is parang it was.
24:47.3
In that spirit na you said that.
24:48.9
And you were mentioning what was already out there.
24:51.2
It's not like you made a comment out of thin air.
24:53.4
But anyway, we'll leave that to the courts and hopefully the proper court to settle that soon.
24:57.5
But I just wanted to get your sense on this.
25:00.6
You know what, I will tell you, Richard, that, you know, I, having seen that court in Davao,
25:06.8
I have, I have great trust in the integrity of the judge, you know, that we have.
25:14.2
And as I said, following the Lima's example,
25:17.3
we will see this through in court.
25:20.1
We will, if I am going to get out of this situation that I am in now,
25:28.7
it will be because I have proven myself innocent by the standards of our courts.
25:37.8
So, and I think that in this case, I'm very hopeful that our justice system, you know, will work.
25:47.3
Well, then, before we transition to the bigger picture and me picking on your mind as an analyst and also political sociologist,
25:56.0
obviously, your understanding is that this is not just about your case, right?
26:02.4
And I think that was also the discussion I had with the Lima, which is, it's not also about our, it's about a bigger fight, right?
26:07.7
And in this case, to be specific about the bigger fight, it's also about decriminalization of libel.
26:14.6
Is that a matter of principle and conviction?
26:16.3
I mean, there are...
26:17.2
The concern that I have, Walden, is I am also definite against anything that allows for weaponization,
26:23.3
whether it's counterterrorism law or libel laws that can easily be weaponized against people.
26:29.0
And unfortunately, we see that in fledgling, if not even in established democracies sometimes,
26:33.5
to silence the score, to silent oppositional views, among others.
26:38.0
At the same time, I mean, Walden, there must be some exceptional cases, right,
26:41.5
whereby, you know, you have, quote-unquote, bayaran people who are really engaged.
26:46.1
I mean, think of...
26:47.2
Some of the people, for instance, that smeared Leila de Lima, right?
26:52.7
I mean, some of them engaged in horrible libelous attacks on her, which endangered her life.
26:59.0
And unfortunately, their case was not isolated.
27:01.4
Don't you envision certain exceptional cases whereby there should be a criminal case
27:06.5
if someone is deliberately, you know, endangering another person's life, not only reputation,
27:13.1
by engaging in black operations smear campaigns?
27:15.1
Do you get what I'm saying?
27:16.0
Like, I'm absolutely for...
27:17.2
It should be a civil case, among others.
27:20.8
But I believe there are certain circumstances, just like how hate speech is a violation of basic freedom.
27:27.1
Don't think there should be some exceptional cases like the horrible libelous attacks on de Lima back in the day.
27:33.1
That, for me, parang civil suit is not enough.
27:35.7
Someone has to be criminally held accountable.
27:38.0
Do you get where I'm coming from, Walden?
27:42.3
And here, you need to weigh certain things, Richard.
27:47.2
The problem right now is that we've had, over the last 12 years, you know, the cyber libel law.
27:56.9
And during that time, I believe there has been nearly 4,000 cases filed by politicians
28:03.8
against journalists like you, against ordinary people, for just trying to tell the truth.
28:13.7
So, if we're talking about 4,000...
28:17.2
If we're talking about 4,000 cases being filed against people who are trying to dig up the truth,
28:24.9
I mean, this is a terrible situation of weaponizing, you know, the law.
28:31.9
And it's almost like, as I was telling some people, you know, not only, you know, if they can get a conviction, fine.
28:44.6
But you know what?
28:47.2
They want to impoverish people, you know, because of the fact that a regular journalist, for instance,
28:55.3
will have to hire lawyers and everything else.
28:58.5
And before you know it, siguro malakas yung moral courage ng tao.
29:03.4
Pero pagdating na sa, oh my God, you know, I'm being pushed to poverty, you know, that person is going to think twice or thrice about this, no?
29:15.4
So, the immiseration.
29:16.4
It could be an immiseration.
29:18.2
I mean, we saw that in Singapore, right?
29:20.1
Like, the late Lee Kuan Yew would use that against his opponents, take them to the court and drag them through the court until they're reduced to nothing, right?
29:26.8
Literally, right?
29:28.0
I think this is...
29:29.5
And that's just as good from their point of view as, you know, securing a conviction, you know?
29:38.4
And then for some politicians, it's an alternative to killing their critics.
29:46.4
It's on the ground, you know?
29:47.5
Because, of course, you know, alam naman natin na meron yan mga, you know, people who hire a gun, et cetera.
29:55.7
But that's risky because you could really get caught in that.
29:58.8
So, cyber libel, interestingly enough, has become a substitute for political assassination.
30:07.6
That's safer pa, you know?
30:09.3
So, it's all this...
30:11.2
This is what is there.
30:14.3
So, you have to balance it.
30:16.4
And I think that the option of just making it a civil case, of really being able to collect damages for somebody's reputation being harmed, I think is the best solution around.
30:38.2
And to decriminalize it and just make libel a civil case.
30:43.5
So, that would be my position at this point in time.
30:46.4
So, sumosobra na talaga yung mga politiko na gumagamit nito kasi natatakot talaga sila sa criticism.
30:54.5
So, ang argument ninyo dito, Professor Belli, is that you have to look at how the law has operated in status quo, hindi in terms of in theory, right?
31:06.0
Na sa sobrang binaboy, sa iyong palagay, binaboy talaga itong batas na ito, I think better we just take out the criminalization and just leave it as a civil suit.
31:16.4
So, in that case, you're still against, you know, accountability.
31:20.0
You're still for accountability for people who are abusing their freedom of expression.
31:24.3
But you're just saying the track record is just so bad in terms of weaponization na medyo better rethink the whole thing altogether.
31:32.3
Okay, now I see where you're coming from.
31:34.2
Because for me, may mga tao na binaboy nila yung freedom of expression nila to black ops other people and besmirch other people, etc.
31:42.1
And they deserve accountability for that.
31:44.5
I'm not an absolutist.
31:46.4
Freedom of speech, absolutist.
31:47.7
Because if you're going to use that to incite hatred and violence and, you know, all sorts of phobia, you have to be held accountable for that, right?
31:55.2
And we saw big victims like Senator De Lima who was really a, you know, a huge, huge victim of this kind of black ops operation.
32:02.0
Now, Walden, let's put on your hat as the political sociologist.
32:06.2
Now, obviously, all of this thing we're discussing right now is not operating, it's not within vacuum.
32:11.7
It's happening within bigger picture kung saan.
32:14.6
Yes, let's call it what it is.
32:16.4
Propulsion of the UNITEAM.
32:17.9
I think you and I independently, years earlier, we said, indisustainable itong Marcos and Duterte dynasty.
32:23.4
You know, you cannot put a lion and tiger in the same cage and expect them to be friends and allies and, you know, share the chicken and hainas.
32:32.4
It's not gonna happen, right?
32:33.7
It's not gonna happen.
32:34.5
So, sorry for the zoo.
32:38.4
I remember this, yung dating chief of staff, yung first chief of staff, Priebus ba yan?
32:43.5
Chief of staff ni Trump.
32:46.4
He said, the Trump administration is like a zoo without fence.
32:49.4
It's like, when you put a, I mean, when you put all these predators next to each other without fence, there's gonna be blood, right?
32:56.1
So, that always stuck with me.
32:58.4
So, my point is, I don't think this is gonna end very well.
33:02.0
I mean, when you put these two giants and as I put it, I mean, both of us are Ilocanos, right?
33:06.5
And for me, the Marcoses were always the OG, right?
33:10.1
They were the originals, right?
33:11.5
Like, if this guy's gonna come back, they're not gonna share it.
33:16.4
They're gonna go for gold, right?
33:18.2
So, I think, zero surprise with what's happening right now.
33:24.2
I mean, we have written on this already in the past.
33:26.2
But, nevertheless, what is your read of how things are turning out?
33:31.0
Kasi, ang basa ko rin dito, Walden, is, yung isang side na mas mahina ngayon, na ilusyonado pa rin,
33:38.3
they're digging their own grave.
33:40.0
Like, every time BBM is giving them a chance to retreat peacefully, susulsol na naman sila.
33:47.4
Like, Digong will go to China.
33:48.4
Digong will attack Romualdez.
33:50.4
SMNI will attack.
33:51.4
Like, you guys are not realizing.
33:52.4
You're not in power anymore.
33:54.4
They have their own mind, right?
33:55.4
I don't know about Aimee.
33:56.4
But, I'm talking about Marcos, Romualdez, that whole gang.
33:57.4
What is your read on that, Manong Walden?
33:58.4
An our Ilocano friend there, yeah?
34:00.4
First of all, tama ka, Richard, na as long as you're a member of the ILO, you're gonna
34:01.4
be a member of the ILO.
34:02.4
You're gonna be a member of the ILO.
34:03.4
You're gonna be a member of the ILO.
34:04.4
You're gonna be a member of the ILO.
34:05.4
As we said, this is going to happen sooner rather than later.
34:24.7
And I would say that in terms of my quote unquote prediction, it's just about the right
34:31.5
time for the split to happen.
34:35.4
And so, kasi walang kuha na. It's purely power. I mean, it's not principles involved. Unitim was always about a question of power, power sharing or what.
34:48.8
Alliance of inconvenience.
34:50.3
Alliance of inconvenience, yes.
34:52.5
Yeah, is it alliance of inconvenience or what? But there were no principles involved at all.
34:58.1
So, and that's the most fragile kind of alliance. You have nothing to stand on but an agreement to quote unquote share power.
35:09.4
The second thing I think is, you know, the Philippine presidency is something like this.
35:16.0
And I think you probably agree with this. The Philippine presidency is one of the most powerful in the world.
35:25.9
For six years, you're a king.
35:28.1
You can do anything. You know, you can do anything.
35:31.2
You know, you can, and we saw how Duterte did this with the Lima.
35:35.7
I mean, he could, you know, he could buy Congress. He could intimidate the Supreme Court. He could do anything.
35:42.2
So, it's like a democratic monarchy.
35:47.2
But, after those six years, you, when you leave power, then you're very, very vulnerable.
35:57.4
This is why I think Duterte was pissed off at Sarah for not running for president.
36:06.7
Because I think Duterte already knew what was going to happen.
36:10.7
That he was going to be left without protection.
36:15.5
And Marcos, whom he had criticized and implied was a cocaine addict and he had no respect for, was going to be president.
36:27.4
Yung tingin ko riyan is nakita na ni Duterte ito.
36:30.8
Kaya, hindi ba pinipilit niya si Sarah tumakbo?
36:34.5
Pero yun nga, Walden, galit din si Sarah sa tatay niya kasi pinipilit si Bongo.
36:39.6
So, si Bongo yata yung nagsira ng plano ng mag-ama na yan.
36:50.5
Kasi, you know, si Duterte, Machiavellian mind yan.
36:57.4
Hari ka for six years, pero pag wala na, dapat may protection ka.
37:01.9
At pag wala kang protection, kasi yung anak mo, eh, you know, naloko ng mga Marcos, eh, kun na yan.
37:13.1
You know, I mean, he probably expected that this blow up would occur.
37:20.0
So, now we're in this situation, as you said, the political win.
37:27.4
And, do they know it?
37:34.7
Well, probably they're still thinking that they have enough people within the bureaucracy and within the house.
37:44.6
But I agree with you, you know, na pag nakita na ng mga ibang institutions like Congress, mga congressmen, congresswomen,
38:03.4
They're not with them, yeah.
38:05.4
You've become vulnerable.
38:06.4
You know, influence and power can disappear in 30 seconds.
38:10.5
And I think that's what's happening right now.
38:14.5
So, I don't know what...
38:19.3
I mean, the possibility of actually Duterte going to The Hague.
38:26.7
To the cell that's waiting for him there is actually more of a big possibility now.
38:32.7
I mean, hindi biro yung ginawa nung dalawang committee sa Congress, yung justice at saka yung human rights committee na to get the Philippines to cooperate with the ICC.
38:45.7
I mean, that's a big step forward.
38:52.7
If I were Duterte, I would...
38:57.7
I would be very worried at this point.
39:07.7
And now that Laila is free, the person who, you know, has the most data on him both as president and as mayor of Davao, the...
39:23.7
You know, the posse is coming in.
39:28.7
Of course, what the Marcoses will actually do if they will go and allow his being prosecuted by the ICC, we still don't know at this point.
39:44.7
Or will they, in typical elite fashion, give him an out?
39:51.7
And maybe scare him a bit?
40:00.7
Leverage it but not really turn him over to the ICC.
40:06.7
Yan yung mga calculations nila ngayon on the Marcoses' side.
40:12.7
But one thing I'm very sure.
40:15.7
If, in fact, the...
40:19.7
The administration...
40:20.7
The administration changes its position and now says that, you know, the ICC can come in and investigate.
40:29.7
It's going to be out of political interest and not out of principle.
40:35.7
Of course, they might try to cloak it as the Philippines, you know, becoming, you know, the rule of law and all of that.
40:48.7
It's going to be a calculation based on...
40:52.7
On what's good for dynastic interest at this point in time.
40:57.7
And unfortunately, Richard, as you know, the countries caught up in this dynastic dramas while...
41:08.7
While the rest...
41:11.7
What we should really be doing as in terms of governance is just swept aside.
41:18.7
Because everything gets focused now on power struggles, no?
41:22.7
So the economy goes to pot and so many other things get derailed because the big drama is that the elite politicians and the dynasties are all, you know, thinking about their next moves, no?
41:38.7
So that's, for me, the big tragedy.
41:43.7
In the sense that, again, dynastic...
41:46.7
Dynastic elite politics, you know, pure power plays, you know, become dominant.
41:58.7
Whereas what really needs to be done with the economy and so many other things...
42:06.7
Is put aside, you know?
42:10.7
For me, that's what...
42:13.7
That's the most tragic thing.
42:15.7
About what's happening right now.
42:17.7
Except if, Walden, I want to end this podcast.
42:21.7
I mean, we look forward to even more discussion hopefully in person soon.
42:24.7
At the same time, there is an opening here, right?
42:28.7
New spaces are coming out.
42:30.7
Because my next question, and I want us to end the podcast on this part for today is...
42:37.7
But this family feud, inter-dynastic feud, right?
42:41.7
It's creating a space for a third force, right?
42:44.7
For progressive and opposition to come in.
42:46.7
Because there is now an opportunity, right?
42:48.7
Because if the current dynamics continue, BBM will also be...
42:54.7
I mean, both Duterte's and Marcos' are somehow in a vulnerable position right now, right?
42:59.7
And in fact, my take is, ironically, because the opposition was weak after elections, BBM felt confident enough to take on Duterte's.
43:06.7
But eventually, the opposition should come in, right?
43:08.7
Whatever your definition of opposition...
43:10.7
Do you see some potential green shoots?
43:12.7
I mean, is there a chance now for Risa and the Lima and you, among others, to lead the next generation of political opposition?
43:20.7
And of course, the younger generation, given that.
43:22.7
Do you see... I mean, what is your advice?
43:26.7
I mean, what is your counsel?
43:27.7
What should the opposition...
43:28.7
How should the opposition approach this implosion and kind of, you know, the clash of titans situation that is happening in Philippine politics?
43:35.7
To make sure, hindi hanggang family feud drama lang, hindi lang hanggang mga lesser evil kind of dynamics.
43:41.7
But actually, we go for a true alternative.
43:45.7
Yeah, no, definitely.
43:47.7
I think the opposition should really mature as an opposition.
43:57.7
They have to leave behind the old yellow kind of politics that was just very hypocritical and the people saw through it, you know?
44:11.7
And begin to really offer a vision of the country's future that's based on real democracy, the achievement of equality, and, you know, the regaining of our sovereignty as a country, both economically and politically.
44:29.7
So, here is a chance, and there are people that are there, as you mentioned, Senator de Lima and Riso Hontiveros, that whom...
44:40.7
...I have a great deal of respect for.
44:43.7
But in terms of the old guard of the Liberal Party, I don't think that they offer a future.
44:52.7
They might just, you know, it would be better, you know, if they just disappeared and have real progressives, you know...
45:10.7
...articulate a vision for people.
45:12.7
So, you know, so that's what I'm really hoping for.
45:18.7
And I hope that the left, you know, and as we all know, the left in the Philippines is, you know, has so many different groupings at this point in time.
45:29.7
I hope that it gets to its senses and realizes that they just can't be fighting one another...
45:36.7
...instead of fighting to have a better future because the left is just bogged down in terrible sectarianism at this point in time.
45:46.7
And the problem is that unless that opposition comes in at this point in time, the force that is, and in fact, you know, has, is moving very fast is the United States.
46:05.7
You know, I mean, what else, what has been the main thing that has happened over the last year and a half?
46:15.7
It's not domestic issues.
46:18.7
It's been the granting of military bases to the United States, you know, four more bases to the nine.
46:25.7
And, you know, we've basically contracted out.
46:35.7
We've contracted out our defense and foreign policies to the United States.
46:38.7
I mean, they're having it so good at this point in time, you know.
46:42.7
And how do we have a foreign policy that's really independent?
46:49.7
And I wrote for the New York Times and others that said we really have to have an independent foreign policy.
46:56.7
We need to criticize China for what it's doing in the West Philippine Sea.
47:04.7
But at the same time, we cannot allow ourselves to be utilized by a superpower that's on the decline as a mechanism to counter China.
47:17.7
And my sense always, Richard, you might disagree with this, is that the bases here have had nothing to do really with Taiwan.
47:28.7
You know, I know that's what they say that it's because of the Taiwan emergency.
47:33.7
First of all, China is not going to be foolish enough to invade Taiwan.
47:39.7
Secondly, it was about fortifying the Philippines, you know, as a point of power projection against China,
47:48.7
which has always been the strategic conception of the Americans regarding what the Philippines' main role is,
47:56.7
which is an offshore platform for power projection.
48:00.7
And that's why we were taken in 1898.
48:04.7
And that's why they've returned at this point in time.
48:06.7
So, yes, I agree with you.
48:08.7
Let's get progressive and liberal forces to move, offer a new vision.
48:15.7
But at the same time, we should be very wary about the kind of concessions that are being given to the United States at this point in time.
48:24.7
And we really need to have an independent foreign policy.
48:29.7
Unfortunately, DeMarco says,
48:32.7
the United States really are not the people to provide that.
48:36.7
The only thing that the Marcoses are interested in is the protection of their property abroad and here.
48:45.7
And in fact, you may disagree with this, Richard,
48:48.7
but the reason that those concessions have been made to the United States was because
48:56.7
Marcos always feared that the United States could freeze his assets.
49:01.7
In all the different places in the world where they have that $10 billion invested in.
49:07.7
The U.S. Treasury has a lot of power.
49:09.7
Its arms can reach all sorts of places.
49:14.7
And that's really what our foreign policy now amounts to.
49:19.7
Independence, it's not about...
49:21.7
It's about the protection of the Marcos Treasury abroad.
49:25.7
Waldo, I appreciate you smuggling in the foreign policy part,
49:30.7
which you could see in my face,
49:32.7
we can have a completely different podcast on that because...
49:35.7
No, I agree with you in principle.
49:37.7
This is not about choosing one master over the other.
49:41.7
Although I would say, historically, I'm more worried.
49:43.7
I think the U.S. is more like the declining Spain
49:45.7
and China is more like the U.S. at the turn of the 20th century.
49:49.7
But we can go back to the Aguinaldo moment in a separate podcast.
49:54.7
And I mean, yeah.
49:56.7
For me, there's no easy answers to this, right?
50:00.7
How can we find the proper kind of equilibrium or Goldilocks point
50:05.7
whereby the Philippines can leverage alliances and partnership
50:08.7
but not sell out to one superpower to defend itself against
50:11.7
another bully and all of that.
50:13.7
But I want to end on this note because I...
50:16.7
Thanks for bringing that out because we'll have to have a separate discussion really on that
50:20.7
because I keep on seeing you mentioning,
50:23.7
you know, Richard is a great guy but we have some disagreement.
50:25.7
So we're going to settle that.
50:27.7
Don't worry about it, Waldo.
50:28.7
But I want to ask,
50:29.7
what is your blueprint for the opposition?
50:32.7
Because, you know, when I and Ronald and other friends come together,
50:36.7
and Leloy and other common friends,
50:39.7
something special happened last year, right?
50:41.7
Look at how much excitement you and your campaign generated with Caglioti.
50:48.7
Look at how much excitement Lenny's campaign also generated.
50:51.7
You know, the millions that came out among others.
50:53.7
I mean, we can debate about the faults of the liberals and all
50:56.7
but we cannot debate about the yearning.
50:58.7
For a more progressive,
51:00.7
democratic politics and future for the Philippines.
51:03.7
So we saw there's a constituency for that.
51:05.7
Literally millions coming out.
51:07.7
Don't you think that gives you a little bit of window into what can happen?
51:10.7
Because the last time we had a conversation was about Thailand, right?
51:13.7
And the sad thing in Thailand is,
51:15.7
there is a military junta, right?
51:17.7
There is a monarchy, absolute monarchy that eventually block PITA, you know,
51:21.7
and the progressives from coming in.
51:23.7
Thankfully, we don't have that.
51:25.7
So if we just get our act together,
51:27.7
we can do what PITA could not do.
51:29.7
So PITA got the election and mobilization right,
51:32.7
but the rest was beyond its control because Thailand is not really a democracy.
51:36.7
The Philippines is a broken democracy,
51:38.7
but it's still a democracy in the sense that there's no absolute monarch,
51:41.7
crazy military, right?
51:43.7
So our excuses are fewer than PITA and Thailand.
51:46.7
So that's why I really like our podcast earlier this year when we discussed the Thai elections.
51:50.7
So is that what is your blueprint, Walden,
51:52.7
for what should the opposition do to make sure,
51:56.7
is this the Rahm Emanuel thing that never let kind of a crisis go to waste, right?
52:04.7
How can the opposition make sure that this,
52:07.7
I keep on quoting my chief of staff of US presidents, right,
52:11.7
from Priebus to Rahm Emanuel.
52:14.7
How does the opposition make sure this implosion of the UNITEAM
52:18.7
doesn't go down as just another family feud for us to be stuck with another dynasty for the foreseeable future?
52:23.7
Because one of the things I hated hearing is,
52:25.7
ah, so ganito yan, BBM, then Sarah, then, I don't know, Marcos III, and then, you know, Bastet.
52:32.7
Like that's the most cynical and like hopeless way of looking at Philippine politics
52:37.7
because my suspicion is we're going to have a president in 2028
52:40.7
which is not named Marcos or Duterte or anything like that.
52:42.7
I'm almost 100% sure about that.
52:44.7
I'm not going to give names, but I'm very confident.
52:46.7
And my point is there's a good chance for the progressive opposition to come in.
52:50.7
Walden, what is the last point there?
52:51.7
Wag mo na-smuggle yung EDCA, nalo.
52:53.7
Mahapang usapan yan.
52:54.7
We cannot do that.
52:55.7
We're going to have a back and forth on that.
52:56.7
Let's have a separate podcast nalang on that, Walden.
52:58.7
But let's talk about politics, Philippines, progressive future amid the implosion of unity.
53:05.7
Well, let me say that the elements of our program for the country are there
53:13.7
and have been there for some time.
53:16.7
You know, whether it's in agriculture, you know,
53:20.7
the way that our agriculture needs to be resurrected,
53:24.7
whether on the question of manufacturing
53:27.7
and the way that we must, again, you know, be smart industrially,
53:32.7
and on the way that there has to be changes with respect to, you know,
53:40.7
the way that the economy is run.
53:45.7
You know, like we cannot just leave it up to neoliberal technocrats
53:50.7
who've screwed up the economy for the last, you know,
53:55.7
And, you know, nandoon, I mean, whether it's on climate,
54:01.7
the key elements of the program are really there.
54:04.7
And we really need, one, to popularize those, you know, this progressive program.
54:11.7
And secondly, we really need to construct these alliances, you know,
54:17.7
that will be hard to construct.
54:19.7
But nevertheless, I think it's very, very necessary.
54:22.7
Which means that the different groups now on the opposition
54:28.7
really need to not see it as a zero-sum game.
54:33.7
That they have to make certain concessions
54:37.7
in order to be able to forge a really great, you know, effective coalition.
54:45.7
And then finally, with respect to the left part of that,
54:50.7
I think that enough of the rhetoric,
54:56.7
enough of the quarrels within, you know, the left,
55:01.7
enough with models of the 20th century,
55:05.7
let's move on to really conceptualizing
55:08.7
and fighting for a real social democracy
55:11.7
or democratic socialist future.
55:13.7
I think that's where it is.
55:20.7
I waver on this because
55:23.7
my generation, Richard,
55:27.7
was caught up in the revolution of the 1970s and 1980s.
55:33.7
If you can remember that when, you know, that was...
55:38.7
I wasn't born then.
55:41.7
The sense that there was going to be what they called a national democratic future.
55:47.7
But after 1986, that went down the drain.
55:51.7
And, you know, cyclical ito mga generations.
55:58.7
Maybe, what will really make the difference
56:02.7
is the generation after Gen Z.
56:06.7
You know, that...
56:08.7
The generation that is now
56:12.7
in their, you know, very young stages.
56:16.7
That will again...
56:17.7
I think nine and below.
56:18.7
Yeah, nine and below or something like that.
56:20.7
Like my nephew, Denise.
56:21.7
You know, that's...
56:23.7
I have a feeling that that might be the generation
56:26.7
that will really take up again the banner
56:29.7
of real change in the country.
56:31.7
So, you know, I go...
56:33.7
I go back and forth on this.
56:36.7
But nevertheless, I think it's very important that we
56:41.7
look at the here and now and see what are the possibilities.
56:45.7
Not for a shallow unity of the opposition,
56:49.7
but for a unity that's forged on principles.
56:56.7
And I know people sometimes say people like me,
56:59.7
people like you are just too idealistic.
57:03.7
I really doubt when an idea, you know,
57:10.7
whose time has come is there,
57:14.7
nothing can stop it.
57:15.7
Nothing can stop it.
57:17.7
Thank you very much, Walden, for that.
57:18.7
I think this just tells us that we need another podcast soon.
57:21.7
I think I want to have another discussion with you also
57:24.7
on industrial policy.
57:25.7
In fact, one of the best episodes in the year that we did was
57:28.7
an episode I did with Lisandro Claudio on the history
57:31.7
of the Philippines industrial policy strategy,
57:33.7
why it failed from essentially commonwealth period
57:36.7
all the way to post-Marcos era, right?
57:42.7
So I would love...
57:43.7
He's the expert on that.
57:46.7
The bureaucratic politics.
57:47.7
So he has a new book actually on that.
57:49.7
So that was a fantastic discussion because I want to talk to you too
57:51.7
because I also had a series of podcasts with Sunny Africa also about this issue
57:56.7
of an industrial policy for the 21st century.
57:59.7
But of course, you are the guru of this.
58:01.7
You are one of the persons who first focused really on the role of technocrats
58:04.7
and how they're also partly responsible for the morass and mess
58:08.7
that we find ourselves developmentally today.
58:10.7
Fastest growing economy in Southeast Asia,
58:12.7
highest unemployment, underemployment, highest poverty rate.
58:15.7
There's something fundamentally wrong here.
58:17.7
So hopefully, Waldo, we can have you soon to discuss that.
58:22.7
I would just like to also put a plug for Tessa Encarnacion's Marcos' Technocrats
58:27.7
that I think is a very great study of how these people were able to capture
58:33.7
the economic policy making and are still holding it because of the ideology.
58:43.7
Thank you for giving the plug in for the next episode essentially.
58:47.7
So because I want to also talk about what should we do for the 21st century
58:50.7
with AI and artificial intelligence and 3D printing and 5G, 6G network.
58:56.7
I mean, can we do the industrial policy like we did before or something new?
59:00.7
There's so much to discuss, Waldo, on that.
59:02.7
And then don't worry, we'll go back to our pet peeve on ETCA and all.
59:05.7
We can have a fight over that because that's what we are.
59:08.7
We are pluralistic Democrats.
59:09.7
We can agree to disagree.
59:10.7
And that's what I want people to understand.
59:12.7
We can agree to disagree even as friends and all.
59:15.7
And there's nothing wrong about that.
59:16.7
It's just part of the debate.
59:18.7
And the problem with people is they misconstrued disagreement as an assault
59:23.7
on someone's dignity or something like that.
59:26.7
Anyway, thank you so much, Waldo.
59:28.7
I'm pretty sure you'll never sue me for cyber libel.
59:33.7
We're safe from that.
59:34.7
I think you really have to bring it back there.
59:40.7
Hopefully, we can have more of this discussion, Waldo and Belio.
59:44.7
Stay strong and stay passionate as you are.
59:47.7
Many people are very much inspired by what you're doing.
59:50.7
We even have DDS supporters, Marcos supporters, Lenny supporters, all of them watching us
59:56.7
and all of them appreciating what you're doing, Waldo.
59:59.7
Mabuhay ka and talk to you soon, Dr. Belio.
60:03.7
Thanks a lot, Richard.
60:04.7
I really appreciate being on your program.
60:10.7
I'll send you a link once these are out.
60:18.7
Thank you very much.
60:19.7
Maraming salamat sa lahat ng mga nanonood sa atin.
60:20.7
As I said, ito talaga nag-arrange tayo.
60:22.7
We'll try to have more of this discussion also in the future, not only with Dr. Belio,
60:27.7
one of the leading sociologists in the world, but also we'll have it with Karen, R, RM,
60:34.7
RRL, all of mga kasama natin na we talk to each other.
60:38.7
On that note, thank you very much.
60:39.7
God bless and talk to you soon.
