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00:00.0
Alright everyone, good evening. Kasama po natin ngayon, isa sa aking mga favorite Ilocanos out there, Dr. Walden Belio. Thank you very much, Walden, for joining us again.
00:11.8
Thanks, Richard, for inviting me again.
00:15.1
As always, Walden. Actually, kanina na-wrap up na ng aking yearly, alam mo naman, sa Spotify, podcast and all that.
00:22.1
Apparently, our episode on Thailand and Lessons for the Philippines was the second highest episode ko ng podcast.
00:28.6
You were only beaten by the Maharlika episode we had with our good friend, Budget Babe.
00:34.0
So, not a bad performance. Perhaps for 2024, we'll target for number one, most listened to podcast episode.
00:42.5
So, thank you so much again, Walden, for joining us.
00:46.0
So, Walden, obviously, we want to talk about your case, among others, shortly, but also talk about your take on what's happening in the country.
00:54.6
As you know, I have my own thoughts on that and we exchange thoughts.
00:58.6
With our common friends, among others, Ronald Llamas, who owes me a lot, and Christian Esguerra as his talent managers.
01:05.8
We got the guy famous. So, suddenly, everyone is looking for him and sinanalysis.
01:11.8
Kasi sumisingil na si Ronald.
01:13.8
Wait lang, wait lang. I didn't charge you for my talent management pa at publicity campaign na me and Christian Esguerra did for you.
01:20.5
Now, Walden, things are looking interesting, to put it in a, I don't know, in a quite dialectical way.
01:27.0
But if not, in a more political way.
01:28.6
In a more political sense of the word.
01:30.1
Now, so, the lima is out.
01:32.2
And it looks like, I mean, we had an interview last week.
01:34.4
It looks like she's very confident that the last legal threads, you know, are going to be untethered pretty soon.
01:42.2
And then she will be most likely on the offensive now, you know.
01:45.2
How do you feel about the lima situation, considering you guys have a very good friendship throughout the years?
01:50.0
I know you have been source of a lot of books and advice.
01:52.9
And she has written a lot of letters to you, handwritten letters.
01:55.4
I remember back in the day, because, you know, she was writing all of us.
01:57.8
But you were among her.
01:58.6
And she was one of my favorite interlocutors.
02:00.7
Can you tell us a little bit about that, your friendship with Senator de Lima?
02:04.2
Oh, well, you know, I had worked with Senator de Lima when I was the head of the House Committee on Overseas Workers.
02:14.1
And we were trying to get, to penalize a number of...
02:28.6
Philippine DOLE officials abroad that were involved with what is called the Singapore Flight Scandal.
02:38.6
Basically taking advantage sexually of our OFWs.
02:44.1
And I worked very closely and she was very, very committed.
02:47.5
So, I was not that particularly close.
02:51.5
But when Duterte started to slap this crazy...
02:58.6
That she was a part of the whole drug ring.
03:02.3
I knew immediately that this was a frame-up.
03:06.9
Because I had worked with her.
03:09.7
And, you know, I had worked with her.
03:11.3
So, to me, it was just a frame-up and it was silly.
03:17.6
And so, that's why from the very beginning, I was really quite supportive of her.
03:26.7
And I wrote articles.
03:28.6
I wrote articles both nationally and internationally in support of her.
03:32.5
And just calling it a spade a spade, which was a Duterte frame-up.
03:39.8
And so, and at the same time, I analyzed what happened.
03:44.5
And I think there were two things that I think occurred here.
03:51.9
One was the Duterte strategy.
03:55.2
It's evil genius of raking up.
03:58.1
You know, misogynistic attacks on her.
04:04.2
Which was, of course, carried out in the house by people like Roque.
04:11.1
And, you know, that was, you know, it was appealing to this misogynistic kind of subliminal things in Filipinos.
04:24.8
And that was one thing.
04:26.3
The second thing was just...
04:28.1
How completely, you know, blitzkrieg talaga eh.
04:32.9
And, you know, I mean, charging the Secretary of Justice as being the center of the drug ring in the Philippines.
04:38.6
I think that even if some people initially thought it was crazy, just the mere effrontery of this sort of destabilized them.
04:49.9
And sort of gave doubts that, oh my God, is this, is there credibility?
04:58.0
So, na-destabilize yung mga tao na who would not work with the Lima.
05:04.5
And then thirdly, and I think the Senator has pointed it out, that she was so disappointed that many of her political friends did not come to her rescue.
05:19.9
And I think part of it was that they feared that they would be next if they sided.
05:28.0
So, you know, so I think that's sort of the way that I analyzed the whole situation.
05:37.5
So, but I was very happy to work with Senator de Lima.
05:44.0
And as you know, she was deprived of a phone.
05:49.8
And she had very limited TV viewing hours.
05:53.5
So, you know, since I, you know, I...
05:58.0
Basically, I tried to get as many books as possible to her.
06:02.0
I believe I must have gotten some 800 to 1,000 titles into Camp Krame.
06:14.3
That's a big operation.
06:15.5
That's a big operation.
06:18.5
She wanted to be an...
06:20.6
You know, barracks with 1,000 books.
06:23.2
Well, she wanted to be an expert not only on the law, but on economics, on political science.
06:28.0
She wanted novels.
06:30.7
So, you know, from fiction to Thomas Piketty to, you know, Arundhati Roy.
06:40.3
Well, that was, you know, I realized that this was the stuff that would keep her mind going
06:47.4
and prevent her from going into gloom or depression.
06:54.6
So, that's it, you know.
06:58.0
And I was very, very happy.
06:59.9
And I was in the court when she got freed.
07:02.9
And so, I was very happy.
07:04.3
It was a joyous occasion that we finally, finally stopped the Duterte machine that had framed her.
07:14.3
I mean, Walden, the reason I ask about this is because I know you're a man of very high threshold.
07:19.6
You know, you don't easily get impressed, especially by politicians and statesmen, like, you know, in besieged democracies like the Philippines.
07:26.5
So, you know, I always...
07:27.7
I always wondered, like, where is this admiration for Leila de Lima coming from?
07:31.9
I mean, I would...
07:32.6
I mean, if it's from, you know, usual folks, liberal party folks or, you know, folks from the Aquino administration, I understand it.
07:39.4
But, you know, the more I talk to people, including Ronald Llamas, who was in the Aquino administration, political advisor,
07:44.9
I hear so many good things about her.
07:46.5
You know, I talk to people who have been active in civil society and human rights campaigns.
07:51.5
And they told me now when she was the head of the Commission on Human Rights, when she was the justice secretary, she really held the ground.
07:58.4
She really held the line and she really fought for it.
08:01.7
So she's a consistently authentic person committed to it.
08:04.9
Ken, I wanted to ask, where is your story coming from?
08:08.9
Because, I mean, Walden, I mean, you know, we interviewed Senator de Lima the other week.
08:13.7
And we can talk about that a little bit more later on.
08:16.0
The thing is, there's so much the rumor meal, the dark Marites meal against her has been grinding through and through and until even today, you know.
08:26.6
And some are saying that.
08:27.7
Oh, baka she's just getting scot-free because etong administration naman ayokay digong, which we're going to talk about later on.
08:33.5
So, you know, that's the problem, no?
08:35.7
The kind of the gables, the Nazi kind of problem, which is when you spread lies over and over again for a thousand times, a million times in this case,
08:44.0
you know, it leaves a certain damage.
08:46.7
And for me, you are among people that I consider as a moral compass.
08:51.5
So ako, palati ko sinisabi, if Walden has a respect for that person, there must be something special with that person.
08:56.5
And by the way, this is complete.
08:57.7
Completely independent from my own track of engagement with Leila Delima.
09:01.5
But the thing is, Walden, of course, sinaba naman ako.
09:03.3
I mean, I'm just whatever journalist academic out there.
09:06.0
So I ask you, I ask Ronald, I ask other people to also know her.
09:10.1
Know her better, way better than me.
09:12.3
Although, of course, all of us visited her throughout the years.
09:14.7
And ako, I have high regards for her.
09:17.8
So thank you for, you know, telling us your side of the story and not her testimony to why Senator Delima is really something special.
09:24.8
I remember back in the day, Delima.
09:26.5
I mean, the first time she really got.
09:27.7
Caught my attention.
09:28.8
I realized there's something special about this person.
09:30.7
I remember naka-issue siya with one big church.
09:33.8
And then, I think this was 2015, right?
09:36.8
And then, you know, ETSA was being blocked or something like that.
09:40.9
And a former president actually did not drop by her birthday not long after that incident.
09:45.7
So like, noon pa lang makikita mo na she was really walking ahead of the crowd, if I can put it that way, right?
09:51.3
I mean, she's really an independent minded person.
09:53.0
Doon mo na kita matapang talaga tong taong to eh.
09:55.3
And I just met her weeks before all the.
09:57.7
Hit job, black ops against her started in the Philippine Senate.
10:01.5
There was an awarding ceremony was there.
10:03.3
And, you know, she was still jolly and sprightly and, you know, go lang siya ng go.
10:07.9
And later on, I also visited her in 2019 onwards when she was in course.
10:13.1
But my point is, you know, I had my own take on this.
10:16.0
But to hear it from people like you na alam ko hindi ka madali mabullshit.
10:21.5
Na mataas ang threshold mo for respect.
10:23.6
That is very encouraging.
10:24.7
Now, Walden, let's go to the next part of the discussion here.
10:27.7
Layla de Lima are in the same league on a whole range of issues, including the fact that both of you are awardees for your contributions to human rights by Amnesty International.
10:38.3
I found that mistaken, right?
10:39.2
I think she was the inaugural one.
10:40.9
And you're like the first one who's more of like an economic justice kind of human rights advocate that has been celebrated.
10:49.3
Were you how should I put it?
10:51.2
Like, do you did you see that that you and the Lima will be more or less in the same camp considering that she worked in a liberal?
10:57.7
The administration that you bashed a lot.
10:59.8
You had fights with Aquino back and forth.
11:02.7
Napikon sa'yo si Aquino.
11:04.3
Hanggang ngayon, daming pikon sa'yo ng mga liberals.
11:06.5
Nagalit din sa'kin ngayon.
11:07.9
And they're saying, oh, it makes sense.
11:09.4
Of course, Richard Walden.
11:12.9
So can you tell us a little bit about that?
11:14.7
Like you and Layla are kind of considering the same kind of circles and camps nowadays in terms of your advocacy, yung passion nyo, and your independence of thought and conviction.
11:24.2
Yeah, well, you know, I mean.
11:27.7
Well, you're right.
11:30.9
I became critical of the Liberal Party, especially when it was playing double standards.
11:38.1
It was going after enemies, while at the same time being very tolerant of its people, despite the fact that they were engaging in corruption.
11:56.3
And, you know, especially.
11:57.7
You know, when we had that, that, that special fund.
12:05.1
Disbursement Accelerationment Program?
12:06.8
Yeah, the Disbursement Accelerationment Program.
12:12.2
And so that was, that was there.
12:17.5
I mean, if you're, if you're part of a coalition with an administration and the main platform that you have is anti-liberal,
12:27.7
anti-corruption, and you allow your people to be corrupt, hindi pwede yan.
12:33.9
So I even got into, unfortunately, I got into difficulties with my own party at Bayan because I was intent really on, on calling the president on his double standards.
12:52.6
So, and that's the reason that I finally resigned because I could no longer.
12:57.5
From the House of Representatives because I could no longer tolerate the double standards of President Aquino.
13:05.1
But when it came.
13:07.5
But I think the, the, the, the, the last straw was really Mama Sapana, right?
13:11.6
I think that's, that's really.
13:13.9
Well, there were several things.
13:15.2
One, the most important thing was the Disbursement Accelerationment Program and the double standards there.
13:21.9
The second thing was the EDCA.
13:27.5
You know, the Enhanced Cooperation, a military cooperation with the United States, which I, I, I, I, I opposed, and I became very public about that in an interview with Karen Dabula.
13:43.2
You know, I think the president really, really got pissed off, called me more opposition than the opposition.
13:49.9
I didn't know that.
13:53.0
He, he called me.
13:54.2
He was not pissed off with you, Pinoy?
13:56.5
And then, of course, Mama Sapana, I basically said, this is command responsibility.
14:02.3
Hey, you know, mag John F. Kennedy ka naman, accept command responsibility.
14:09.0
Because, you know, for some reason, he, you know, he probably was advised by his lawyers that you, if you admit responsibility here, that will mean legal case.
14:20.5
You know, against legal.
14:22.2
No, no, but a leader should really accept responsibility.
14:26.5
Sabihin mo yung commander on the ground of an operation that you authorized, that it's really the commander in the ground that, that, that made a, you know, of the big error.
14:36.3
You can't do that.
14:37.0
In any event, let me just say, Richard, that the exception to me was Laila de Lima.
14:45.8
Because, let me go back again, I worked with her on trying to bring to justice Department of Labor.
14:56.5
And, you know, we had a lot of employees that were preying sexually on our, on our OFWs, which, you know, very well at that point in time, you were working with me, and we were trying to get, we were trying to bring justice.
15:14.1
And Laila de Lima.
15:15.3
I remember that, yeah.
15:16.9
Laila de Lima attended their meetings.
15:19.6
She was very supportive.
15:21.3
She wanted to bring justice to our OFWs.
15:25.2
So, my personal experience.
15:26.5
Talaga ako na hindi lang yung she was, she was tough when it came to human rights violations, investigating Duterte, but you could see that she really had a lot of sympathy and for, you know, to, to, to, to accomplish justice for our ordinary Filipinos abroad who were being screwed up by their own government officials.
15:52.8
So, a personal experience like that.
15:56.5
It really generates a lot of respect.
15:59.8
Kaya, as I said, Richard, nung inumpisan nila Duterte and Roque and Dick Gordon and all those crazy people, when they started accusing de Lima and of this, you know.
16:17.6
Yeah, I forgot that.
16:18.5
Kasi later sa Farmali, nakiki-opposition na sila later on, diba?
16:22.1
I remember Harry Roque a lot, yeah.
16:24.6
No, Dick Gordon helped.
16:26.5
He was in the ouster of Laila de Lima from the House Committee on Justice.
16:32.5
You know, he played the center.
16:35.2
Yeah, yeah, Senate Committee on Justice.
16:36.1
Yeah, in the Senate.
16:36.6
He played the central role.
16:38.3
But there, there was.
16:40.0
He was the chair.
16:40.8
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:41.9
It was, there was that whole conspiracy and, you know, you cannot stomach a deliberate frame up like that, you know.
16:49.7
And, you know, so I do hope that, that.
16:55.3
That Laila will get justice, not only on the Dutertes, but also on all the people who assisted in framing her up.
17:07.3
And I would, I would put Roque is, is, is, is one of those.
17:12.6
Harry Roque, I mean.
17:14.7
There's already Roque there, but the most infamous is Harry.
17:18.7
And then, of course, people like Richard Gordon, you know.
17:22.7
And you remember.
17:27.9
So we were like, wait, wait, what?
17:29.9
Yeah, Dick Gordon.
17:31.7
No, he's Dick Gordon.
17:33.5
Don't use Richard.
17:35.0
I mean, you know, he's my classmate and, you know, that, that sort of thing.
17:38.3
But you cannot, you cannot participate in a frame up and not be called on it, you know.
17:45.1
So, so I hope that now that the wheels of justice are moving, you know.
17:52.7
Forward instead of backward.
17:55.3
I do hope that these people get prosecuted for the role they played in the biggest frame up in Philippine legal history.
18:04.7
You know, frame up talaga.
18:06.7
You know, I mean, and, you know, you just don't take seven years of somebody's life and, and, and expect forgiveness.
18:19.1
Well, I mean, obviously, you know, just in the interest of fairness.
18:22.7
Our other guests had different take on the disbursement acceleration program.
18:26.3
So we're saying this was a way to facilitate making sure na hindi lang, you know, wasted yung mga underspending and all of that.
18:34.0
But, but, but, but on the issue of the Mama Sapano, we also had as guests Mayor Magalong, right?
18:40.7
Who, who was really, really strong in terms of his criticism of how the Aquino administration handled that.
18:47.2
So probably I think on the, on the Mama Sapano one, I think we share more in common.
18:51.7
But I get your point.
18:52.7
I get your point in terms of hypocrisies of liberals, not only in the Philippines, but all around the world.
18:56.7
We're also seeing that, you know, now in light of, you know, what's happening, the latest conflicts, no?
19:02.5
Now, Walden, going back to this, I interviewed, when I interviewed Layla last week, I asked her about your case in particular and the issue of, because now we're talking about the wheels of justice somehow moving in the right direction, no?
19:17.2
Clockwise rather than counterclockwise.
19:20.6
And there was some sort of connection problem.
19:22.7
So I don't know if it was on her side, on our minds, on my side, but para para may problema talaga sa connection niya because even the Christian Esquera interview, I think she also had some.
19:30.2
But, but what she was clear about is she is categorically for decriminalization of libel, libel, cyber libel, all sorts of libel and all.
19:38.5
And obviously, this was in light of your case.
19:41.2
How do you feel about your case without betraying, you know, your legal strategy and all?
19:45.8
Can you just tell us a little bit about your perspective on your own legal predicament right now?
19:51.6
And what are your hopes?
19:52.7
In terms of the near future or so, in terms of prospect of you also getting justice, you know, in ways that Layla is getting also right now?
20:01.0
Well, I think Layla is a good example here because, you know, she could have been freed as in the previous program that you had.
20:13.2
She could have been freed a year ago if she only agreed to house arrest, you know.
20:21.0
But that would have meant, you know, in her view, an admission of guilt, no?
20:27.8
And she wanted things to be really clear.
20:30.3
So she didn't, I mean, of course, nobody wants to be in jail, but she was willing to, to, to, she was willing to remain in jail until she got bail.
20:42.1
And of course, when you get bail, you don't, you know, it's not an admission of guilt.
20:46.5
It's, you know, it's, it's some something that, that every citizen has the right.
20:51.0
So, you know, she was firm on that.
20:53.8
No, no admission of guilt.
20:55.7
As for me, no, there's no admission of guilt.
20:58.3
I mean, I think the, the vice president's case of cyber libel against me is, is, is, is pure harassment in the midst of a political campaign.
21:10.1
Why do you say it's the vice president?
21:12.0
I think you're pertaining to a staff member of hers, right?
21:15.0
Which now is in a senior position again, right?
21:18.5
I mean, can you tell us a little bit about that?
21:19.9
Why do you say that?
21:21.9
My, my sense is that it's the vice president's camp.
21:25.7
That has always been my formulation, but it's the vice president's camp.
21:31.0
I mean, how can you divorce the, the press officer while she was mayor and now her key press officer as, as in, in the vice presidential office and in the education?
21:47.7
How can you divorce that from her?
21:51.0
Uh, the, the vice president herself.
21:53.5
So I, I cannot see this person, um, who filed the case against me, who's a very close aid, not having done it without the blessings of the vice president.
22:06.5
And remember, Richard, this was in the midst of the campaign and I was just trying to bring to the voters her actual record as vice mayor.
22:19.6
And, you know, so.
22:21.0
What was the counter attack?
22:22.4
The counter attack was file a cyber libel case against me.
22:26.7
The Davao City Council declared me persona non grata.
22:32.2
The, um, the party of the vice president, uh, labeled me a narco politician.
22:37.8
So, you know, one, two, three, just for saying that this is the record of, um, vice president, uh, of vice, uh, of mayor Duterte.
22:49.5
And she should need.
22:51.0
To come out in a national debate to be able to clear up things.
22:56.1
I mean, you know, that's the reason we have debates, uh, uh, during the vice presidential and presidential thing.
23:03.9
But, you know, that's why if you're going to say participate in a debate, then you have, you know, part of part of appealing to the voters is telling the voters that I am the one who deserves it.
23:21.0
I am the one who deserves to be the vice president because my opponent's record is quite bad.
23:27.6
I mean, that's the, that's the gist of a debate.
23:29.7
But if the person doesn't want to show up because she cannot defend her record, then that's, you know, that, that was the whole essence of the thing was instead of showing up in a debate, they had a light cyber libel case against me, declared me persona non grata, called me a narco politician.
23:46.9
It was really, you know, uh, uh, Indy Farian, Indy Farian.
23:51.7
So, um, so back to your point, I cannot conceive of this press officer working closely with the vice president going after me without the blessings of the vice president.
24:07.9
Thank you, Walden, also for adjusting.
24:10.0
Kasi medyo mababa ka masyado.
24:11.5
Can you, can you adjust your issue?
24:12.8
Yeah, yeah, sure.
24:13.2
Yeah, thank you for that.
24:14.4
Yeah, because I was a bit concerned about that.
24:16.1
Make sure we want to see you while you're making this.
24:19.4
Impassioned intervention.
24:21.0
I think, you know, well, I know you, Walden, you, you, you, you, you know, you're, you're, you're, ano, ano, how should I put it?
24:29.2
Minsan, you know, sutil ka rin.
24:30.6
Like, you know, like me, like, you know, sometimes sutil ka rin.
24:32.7
And, and my, my sense is baka that was your way, you know, you referring to a certain report about showing the paucity of the claim na drug-free ang ganitong.
24:42.8
I think, was that also about, you know, hinahamon mo siya na magdebate sa'yo na.
24:47.9
Yeah, my sense is parang it was in that spirit.
24:50.9
Ritna, you said that.
24:51.9
And you were mentioning what was already out there.
24:54.2
It's not like you made a comment out of thin air.
24:56.4
But anyway, we'll leave that to the courts and hopefully the proper court to, to settle that soon.
25:00.4
But, but I just wanted to get your sense.
25:02.8
I'm, I'm, you know what, I will tell you, Richard, that, you know, I, having seen that court in Davao, I have, I have great trust in the integrity of the judge, you know, that, that, that we have.
25:16.9
And as I said, following the Lima's example.
25:20.9
We will see this through in court, we will, if I am going to get out of this situation that I'm in now, it will be because I have proven myself innocent by the standards of our courts.
25:40.7
So, and I think that in this case, I'm very hopeful that our justice system, you know, will work.
25:50.9
Well, before we transition to the bigger picture and me picking on your mind as a, as a, as an analyst and also political sociologist.
26:01.4
Obviously, your understanding is that this is not just about your case, right?
26:05.4
And I think that was also the discussion I had with the Lima, which is, it's not also about her.
26:08.7
It's about a bigger fight, right?
26:10.7
And in this case, to be specific about the bigger fight is also about decriminalization of libel.
26:17.5
Is that a matter of principle and conviction?
26:19.2
I mean, the concern is,
26:20.7
the concern of Walden is, I am also definitely against anything that allows for weaponization, you know, whether it's counterterrorism law or libel laws that can easily be weaponized against people, you know?
26:32.2
And unfortunately, we see that in fledgling, if not even in established democracy sometimes, to silence the score, to silent oppositional views, among others.
26:40.9
At the same time, I mean, Walden, there must be some exceptional cases, right?
26:44.5
Whereby, you know, you have quote-unquote Bayaran people who are really engaged.
26:49.1
And think of the people.
26:50.7
For instance, that smeared Leila de Lima, right?
26:55.7
I mean, some of them engage in horrible libelous attacks on her, which endangered her life.
27:02.0
And unfortunately, their case was not isolated.
27:04.4
Don't you envision certain exceptional cases whereby there should be a criminal case if someone is deliberately, you know, endangering another person's life, not only reputation, by engaging in black operations?
27:17.7
Do you get what I'm saying?
27:19.0
Like, I'm absolutely for decriminalization.
27:20.7
It should be a civil case, among others.
27:23.8
But I believe there are certain circumstances, just like how hate speech is a violation of basic freedom.
27:30.0
Don't think there should be some exceptional cases like the horrible libelous attacks on de Lima back in the day.
27:36.1
That, for me, parang civil suit is not enough.
27:38.7
Someone has to be criminally held accountable.
27:41.0
Do you get where I'm coming from, Walden?
27:44.0
And here, you need to weigh certain things, Richard.
27:49.0
You know, the problem...
27:50.7
The problem right now is that we've had, over the last 12 years, you know, the cyber libel law.
28:00.5
And during that time, I believe there has been nearly 4,000 cases filed by politicians against journalists like you, against ordinary people, for just trying to tell the truth.
28:15.9
So, if we're talking about 4,000 cases...
28:20.7
If we're talking about 4,000 cases being filed against people who are trying to dig up the truth, I mean, this is a terrible situation of weaponizing, you know, the law.
28:34.9
And it's almost like, as I was telling some people, you know, not only, you know, if they can get a conviction, fine.
28:47.4
But you know what?
28:50.7
They want to impoverish people, you know, because of the fact that a regular journalist, for instance, you will have to hire lawyers and everything else.
29:01.2
And before you know it, siguro malakas yung moral carriage ng tao.
29:06.5
Pero pagdating na sa, oh my God, you know, I'm being pushed to poverty, you know, that person is going to think twice or thrice about this, no?
29:18.4
The immiseration.
29:19.8
It could be an immiseration.
29:21.2
And we saw that in Singapore, right?
29:23.0
Like, the late Lee Kuan Yew would use that against his opponents, take them to the court and drag them through the court until they're reduced to nothing, right?
29:30.1
I think this is...
29:32.4
And that's just as good from their point of view as, you know, securing a conviction, you know?
29:41.6
And then for some politicians, it's an alternative to killing their critics on the ground, you know?
29:50.6
Of course, you know, alam naman natin na meron yan mga, you know, people who hire gunmen, et cetera.
29:58.5
But that's risky because you could really get caught in that.
30:01.5
So, cyber libel, interestingly enough, has become a substitute for political assassination.
30:10.6
That's safer pa, you know?
30:12.1
So, it's all this...
30:14.0
This is what is there.
30:17.0
So, you have to balance it.
30:20.6
I think that the option of just making it a civil case, of really being able to collect damages for somebody's reputation being harmed, I think is the best solution around.
30:41.1
And to decriminalize it and just make libel a civil case.
30:46.4
So, that would be my position at this point in time.
30:49.5
Sumosobra na talaga.
30:50.6
Yung mga politiko na gumagamit nito kasi natatakot talaga sila sa criticism.
30:57.6
So, ang argument nyo dito, Professor Belli, is that you have to look at how the law has operated in status quo, hindi in terms of in theory, right?
31:09.4
Na sa sobrang binaboy sa iyong palagay, binaboy talaga itong batas na ito, I think better we just take out the criminalization and just leave it as a civil suit.
31:19.1
So, in that case...
31:20.5
You're still against, you know, accountability.
31:23.0
You're still for accountability for people who are abusing.
31:27.3
But you're just saying the track record is just so bad in terms of weaponization na medyo better rethink the whole thing altogether.
31:35.3
Okay, now I see where you're coming from.
31:37.1
Because for me, may mga tao na binaboy nila yung freedom of expression nila to black ops other people and besmirch other people, etc.
31:45.1
And they deserve accountability for that.
31:47.5
I'm not an absolutist.
31:49.2
Freedom of speech, absolutely.
31:50.5
Because if you're going to use that to incite hatred and violence and, you know, all sorts of phobia, you have to be held accountable for that, right?
31:58.3
And we saw big victims like Senator De Lima who was really a, you know, a huge, huge victim of this kind of black ops operation.
32:05.1
Now, Walden, let's put on your hat as the political sociologist.
32:09.1
Now, obviously, all of this thing we're discussing right now is not operating, it's not within vacuum.
32:14.7
It's happening within bigger picture, Kung Saan.
32:17.5
Yes, let's call it what it is.
32:19.3
Implosion of the...
32:20.5
I think you and I independently, years earlier, we said indisustainable it on Marcos and Duterte dynasty.
32:26.4
You know, you cannot put a lion and tiger in the same cage and expect them to be friends and allies and, you know, share the chicken and hainas.
32:35.4
It's not gonna happen, right?
32:36.8
It's not gonna happen.
32:37.8
So, sorry for the zoo.
32:40.1
I remember this, yung dating chief of staff, yung first chief of staff, pre-boss ba yan, chief of staff ni Trump.
32:49.3
He said, the Trump administration...
32:50.5
He said, the Trump administration is like a zoo without fence.
32:52.4
It's like, when you put all these predators next to each other without fence, there's gonna be blood, right?
32:59.2
So, that always stuck with me.
33:01.4
So, my point is, I don't think this is gonna end very well.
33:04.9
I mean, when you put these two giants, and as I put it, I mean, both of us are Ilohanos, right?
33:09.5
And for me, the Marcoses were always the OG, right?
33:13.0
They were the originals, right?
33:14.4
Like, if these guys are gonna come back, they're not gonna share it with Duterte.
33:19.3
They're gonna go for gold.
33:20.5
So, I think, zero surprise with what's happening right now.
33:27.2
I mean, we have written on this already in the past.
33:29.4
But nevertheless, what is your read of how things are turning out?
33:34.0
Kasi ang basa ko rin dito, Walden, is yung isang side na mas mahina ngayon, na ilusyonado pa rin,
33:41.6
they're digging their own grave.
33:43.0
Like, every time BBM is giving them a chance to retreat peacefully, susulsul na naman sila, di ba?
33:49.6
Like, Digong will go to China, Digong will attack, Romualdez, congrats, SMNI will attack.
33:55.4
Like, you guys are not realizing, you're not in power anymore.
33:58.9
And this is Marcos, they have their own mind, right?
34:01.4
I don't know about Aimee, but I'm talking about Marcos, Romualdez, that whole gang.
34:04.6
What is your read on that, Manong Walden, an hour Ilocano?
34:12.3
Alam niyo, first of all, tama ka, Richard.
34:19.6
As we said, you know, this is going to happen sooner rather than later.
34:25.8
And I would say that in terms of my quote-unquote prediction,
34:32.3
it's just about the right time for the split to happen.
34:37.3
And so, kasi walang kwane, it's purely power.
34:43.1
I mean, it's not principles involved.
34:44.9
Unitim was always about a question of power.
34:49.6
Power sharing or what.
34:51.6
Alliance of inconvenience.
34:53.3
Alliance of inconvenience.
34:55.3
Yeah, alliance of inconvenience or what.
34:57.8
But there were no principles involved at all.
35:00.9
And that's the most fragile kind of alliance.
35:06.6
You have nothing to stand on but an agreement to quote-unquote share power.
35:12.3
The second thing I think is, you know, the Philippine presidency is something like this.
35:19.6
And I think you probably agree with this.
35:22.8
The Philippine presidency is one of the most powerful in the world.
35:28.5
For six years, you're a king.
35:31.1
You can do anything.
35:32.5
You know, you can do anything.
35:34.0
You know, you can...
35:35.2
And we saw how Duterte did this with the Lima.
35:38.5
I mean, he could, you know, he could buy Congress.
35:42.3
He could intimidate the Supreme Court.
35:44.2
He could do anything.
35:45.0
So, it's like a democratic monarchy.
35:49.6
But after those six years, you, when you leave power, then you're very, very vulnerable.
36:00.7
This is why I think Duterte was pissed off at Sarah for not running for president.
36:09.5
Because I think Duterte already knew what was going to happen.
36:13.5
That he was going to be left without protection.
36:19.6
Marcos, whom he had criticized and implied was a cocaine addict and he had no respect for,
36:27.1
was going to be president.
36:29.5
So, yung tingin ko riyan is nakita na ni Duterte ito.
36:33.6
Kaya, hindi ba pinipilit niya si Sarah tumakbo?
36:37.5
Pero yun nga, Walden.
36:38.8
Galit din si Sarah sa tatay niya kasi pinipilit si Bongo.
36:42.6
So, si Bongo yata yung nagsira ng plano na mag-ama na yan.
36:53.3
Kasi, you know, si Duterte, Machiavellian mind yan.
36:58.0
Alam niya na hari ka for six years, pero pag wala na, dapat may protection ka.
37:04.7
At pag wala kang protection, kasi yung anak mo, you know, naloko ng mga Marcos,
37:14.3
eh, kung ano yan.
37:15.2
You know, I mean, he probably expected that,
37:19.6
that this blow up to, would, would occur.
37:23.3
So, so now we're in, in this situation.
37:28.0
As you said, the political winds have shifted.
37:32.5
And, do they know it?
37:37.6
Well, probably they're still thinking that they have enough people within the bureaucracy
37:44.1
and within the house.
37:49.6
I agree with you, you know, na, pag nakita na ng mga ibang institutions like Congress, mga
37:55.8
Congressmen, Congresswomen, the justices, they've seen.
38:07.9
That you're, you're, you've become vulnerable.
38:08.9
You know, influence and power can disappear in 30 seconds.
38:13.3
And I think that's what's happening right now.
38:19.4
I don't know what, um, I mean, the possibility of actually Duterte going to The Hague, uh,
38:29.2
and to the cell that's waiting for him there is actually more of a big possibility now.
38:35.5
I mean, hindi biro yung ginawa nung dalawang committee sa Congress, yung justice at saka
38:42.2
yung Human Rights Committee na, uh, to get the Philippines to cooperate with the ICC.
38:48.5
I mean, that's a big possibility.
38:50.2
That's a big step forward.
38:52.2
Uh, and I, um, so if I were, if I were, uh, Duterte, I would be, um, I would be very
39:02.9
worried at this point.
39:04.9
Um, and, uh, so, um, so, and, and now that Lila is free, the person who, you know, has
39:15.8
the most data, uh, on him.
39:19.0
As, as president and as mayor of Davao, uh, the, you know, the, um, um, you know, the
39:29.3
posse is, uh, is, is coming in now, of course, what the Marcoses will actually do if they
39:36.9
will, um, go and allow, um, um, his, uh, being prosecuted by the ICC, we still don't know
39:48.0
Or will they in typical, uh, elite fashion, uh, give him an out and, um, maybe scare him
40:05.8
Leverage it but not really turn him over to the ICC.
40:10.6
Yan ang mga calculations nila ngayon on, uh, on, on, on, on the Marcoses side.
40:16.6
But one thing I'm very sure of.
40:18.0
if in fact the administration changes its position
40:27.5
and now says that the ICC can come in and investigate,
40:32.8
it's going to be out of political interest
40:36.2
and not out of principle.
40:38.3
Of course, they might try to cloak it as the Philippines
40:43.5
becoming the rule of law and all of that.
40:49.8
But it's going to be a calculation based on what's good
40:56.7
for dynastic interest at this point in time.
41:01.0
And unfortunately, Richard, as you know,
41:05.0
the country's caught up in these dynastic dramas
41:13.5
The rest, what we should really be doing
41:16.4
in terms of governance is just swept aside
41:20.7
because everything gets focused now on power struggles.
41:25.8
So the economy goes to pot
41:27.8
and so many other things get derailed
41:31.7
because the big drama is that the elite politicians
41:36.5
and the dynasties are all thinking about their next moves.
41:43.5
And that's, for me, the big tragedy
41:46.1
in the sense that, again, dynastic elite politics,
41:52.8
pure power plays become dominant,
42:01.1
whereas what really needs to be done with the economy
42:05.5
and so many other things really is put aside.
42:13.5
For me, that's the most tragic thing
42:18.6
about what's happening right now.
42:20.7
Except if, Walden, I want to end this podcast.
42:24.7
I mean, we look forward to even more discussion,
42:26.7
hopefully in person soon.
42:29.0
At the same time, there is an opening here, right?
42:31.7
New spaces are coming out.
42:33.7
Because my next question,
42:36.1
and I want us to end the podcast on this part for today is,
42:40.1
but this family feud, inter-dynastic feud,
42:43.5
is creating a space for a third force,
42:47.7
for progressive and opposition to come in.
42:49.8
Because there is now an opportunity, right?
42:51.7
Because if the current dynamics continue,
42:55.1
BBM will also be...
42:57.5
I mean, both Duterte and Marcos
42:59.5
are somehow in a vulnerable position right now.
43:02.3
And in fact, my take is,
43:04.3
ironically, because the opposition was weak after elections,
43:07.0
BBM felt confident enough to take on Duterte.
43:09.6
But eventually, the opposition should come in, right?
43:12.2
Whatever your definition,
43:13.5
do you see some potential green shoots?
43:15.9
I mean, is there a chance now for Risa and the Lima
43:19.1
and you, among others,
43:21.3
to lead the next generation of political opposition?
43:23.9
And of course, the younger generation, given that.
43:27.4
I mean, what is your advice?
43:29.8
I mean, what is your counsel?
43:31.0
What should the opposition...
43:31.9
How should the opposition approach this implosion
43:34.1
and kind of the clash of titans situation
43:37.4
that is happening in Philippine politics
43:39.8
hindi hanggang family feud drama lang,
43:41.4
hindi lang hanggang mga one dynasty...
43:43.3
A lesser evil kind of dynamics.
43:45.4
But actually, we go for a true alternative.
43:49.1
Yeah, no, definitely.
43:50.8
I think the opposition
43:54.3
should really mature as an opposition.
44:01.1
They have to leave behind
44:03.3
the old yellow kind of politics
44:09.0
that was just very hypocritical
44:11.6
and the people saw through it.
44:14.2
And begin to really offer
44:16.5
a vision of the country's future
44:20.2
that's based on real democracy,
44:23.8
the achievement of equality,
44:26.1
and the regaining of our sovereignty as a country,
44:29.6
both economically and politically.
44:32.5
So here is a chance,
44:34.4
and there are people that are there,
44:38.3
as you mentioned,
44:39.2
Senator de Lima and Risa Hontiveros,
44:43.1
Both of whom I have a great deal of respect for.
44:46.5
But in terms of the old guard of the Liberal Party,
44:50.7
I don't think that they offer a future.
44:56.3
They might just, you know,
44:58.4
it would be better if they just disappeared
45:04.4
and have real progressives,
45:13.1
articulate a vision for people.
45:17.5
so that's what I'm really hoping for.
45:21.6
And I hope that the left,
45:25.5
and as we all know,
45:26.4
the left in the Philippines is,
45:28.8
has so many different groupings
45:31.3
at this point in time.
45:32.4
I hope that it gets to its senses
45:34.3
and realizes that they just can't be fighting one another
45:38.7
instead of fighting to have a better future.
45:43.1
Because the left is just bogged down
45:46.4
in terrible sectarianism at this point in time.
45:50.3
And the problem is that
45:53.8
unless that opposition comes in
45:56.6
at this point in time,
46:00.0
the force that is,
46:04.6
is moving very fast
46:07.6
is the United States.
46:10.0
You know, I mean,
46:13.1
What has been the main thing
46:15.0
that has happened over the last
46:19.6
It's not domestic issues.
46:22.4
It's been the granting of military bases
46:24.8
to the United States,
46:27.2
four more bases to the nine.
46:38.0
our defense and foreign policies
46:40.9
to the United States.
46:43.1
it's so good at this point in time.
46:46.9
how do we have a foreign policy
46:49.8
that's really independent?
46:53.1
I wrote for the New York Times and others
46:57.2
we really have to have an independent foreign policy.
46:60.0
We need to criticize China
47:01.3
for what it's doing
47:02.5
in the West Philippine Sea.
47:07.3
But at the same time,
47:08.6
we cannot allow ourselves to be utilized
47:11.8
that's on the decline.
47:16.5
to counter China.
47:20.9
And my sense always,
47:23.5
you might disagree with this,
47:27.2
have had nothing to do
47:29.5
really with Taiwan.
47:32.4
I know that's what they say,
47:34.0
that it's because of the Taiwan emergency.
47:38.3
China is not going to be foolish enough
47:41.0
to invade Taiwan.
47:43.1
it was about fortifying the Philippines,
47:47.8
as a point of power projection against China,
47:52.0
which has always been
47:53.3
the strategic conception of the Americans
47:57.0
regarding what the Philippines' main role is,
47:59.8
which is an offshore platform
48:01.9
for power projection.
48:04.4
we were taken in 1898 and 1899,
48:07.7
and that's why they've returned
48:09.1
at this point in time.
48:11.4
I agree with you.
48:14.9
and liberal forces to move,
48:17.6
offer a new vision,
48:19.1
but at the same time,
48:20.6
we should be very wary
48:21.7
about the kind of concessions
48:24.6
that are being given to the United States
48:26.5
at this point in time.
48:27.9
And we really need to have
48:29.3
an independent foreign policy.
48:34.7
the Marcoses really
48:35.8
are not the people
48:39.5
The only thing that the Marcoses are interested in
48:42.2
is the power of the Philippines.
48:42.9
And that is the protection of their property,
48:49.1
you may disagree with this,
48:55.2
those concessions have been made
48:57.5
to the United States
48:59.1
Marcos always feared
49:01.0
that the United States
49:02.8
could freeze his assets
49:04.2
in all the different places in the world
49:08.0
that $10 billion invested in.
49:10.6
The U.S. Treasury has a lot of power.
49:14.7
Yeah, very powerful.
49:16.6
And that's really
49:18.4
what our foreign policy now amounts to.
49:24.6
it's about the protection
49:26.4
of the Marcos Treasury abroad.
49:30.5
Well, I appreciate you smuggling
49:32.5
in the foreign policy part,
49:34.7
but you could see in my face
49:36.5
like we can have a completely different podcast
49:39.3
no, I agree with you in principle.
49:41.8
this is not about choosing
49:43.3
one master over the other.
49:45.5
Although I would say historically,
49:46.6
I'm more worried like
49:47.6
I think U.S. is more like
49:48.5
the declining Spain
49:49.4
and China is more like the U.S.
49:51.2
at the turn of the 20th century.
49:53.0
But we can go back
49:53.7
to the Aguinaldo moment
49:54.8
in a separate podcast.
49:58.5
And I mean, yeah,
50:01.0
there's no easy answers to this, right?
50:03.2
I mean, how can we find
50:08.0
or Goldilocks point whereby
50:09.6
the Philippines can leverage
50:10.7
alliances and partnerships
50:12.9
to one superpower
50:14.0
to defend itself against
50:17.1
But I want to end on this note
50:19.9
because thanks for bringing that out
50:21.7
because we'll have to have
50:22.4
a separate discussion really on that
50:24.0
because I keep on saying you,
50:25.8
seeing you mentioning,
50:27.0
you know, Richard is a great guy,
50:28.2
but we have some disagreements.
50:29.6
So we're going to settle that.
50:30.9
Don't worry about it, Walden.
50:33.6
what is your blueprint
50:34.6
for the opposition?
50:36.2
Because, you know,
50:36.6
when I and Ronald
50:37.5
and other friends come together,
50:40.5
and other common friends,
50:42.3
something special happened
50:43.8
last year, right?
50:44.8
Look at how much excitement
50:49.7
generated with Kalyodi.
50:51.7
Look at how much excitement
50:55.6
the millions that came out
50:57.2
I mean, we can debate about
50:58.1
the faults of the liberals
50:59.9
but we cannot debate
51:01.4
about the yearning
51:02.4
for a more progressive
51:03.8
democratic politics
51:05.9
and future for the Philippines.
51:07.0
So we saw there's a constituency
51:09.5
a million coming out.
51:12.4
a little bit of window
51:13.3
into what can happen?
51:14.3
Because the last time
51:14.8
we had a conversation
51:15.5
was about Thailand, right?
51:17.2
And the sad thing in Thailand
51:18.2
is there is a military junta,
51:20.9
There is a monarchy,
51:22.0
absolute monarchy
51:22.7
that eventually block
51:25.1
and the progressives
51:27.3
we don't have that.
51:28.8
So if we just get
51:30.1
our act together,
51:32.2
what PITA could not do.
51:33.6
So PITA got the election
51:34.7
and mobilization right,
51:36.9
beyond his control
51:38.7
is not really a democracy.
51:40.5
is a broken democracy,
51:41.7
but it's still a democracy
51:42.8
in the sense that
51:43.3
there's no absolute monarch,
51:45.4
crazy military, right?
51:47.9
are fewer than PITA
51:50.7
I really like our podcast
51:51.9
earlier this year
51:52.6
when we discussed
51:53.1
the Thai elections.
51:54.4
So what is your blueprint,
51:57.6
the opposition do
52:07.7
How can the opposition
52:11.7
I keep on quoting
52:13.1
my chief of staff
52:13.9
of U.S. presidents,
52:18.4
How does the opposition
52:22.7
as just another family feud
52:24.0
for us to be stuck
52:25.0
with another dynasty
52:25.8
for the foreseeable future?
52:27.3
Because one of the things
52:27.9
I hated hearing is,
52:29.2
ah, so ganito yan,
52:32.2
then, I don't know,
52:34.7
and then, you know,
52:40.0
Philippine politics.
52:42.7
a president in 2028
52:43.6
which is not named
52:44.5
Marcos or Duterte
52:45.4
or anything like that.
52:48.2
I'm not gonna give names,
52:49.2
but I'm very confident.
52:51.3
there's a good chance
52:52.0
for the progressive
52:52.6
opposition to come in.
52:54.1
what is the last point there?
52:55.6
Wag mo na ismagal
52:56.9
na mag-usapan yan.
53:00.0
Let's have a separate
53:02.4
But let's talk about
53:05.1
progressive future
53:05.9
amid the implosion
53:16.3
and have been there
53:24.6
agriculture needs
53:25.7
to be resurrected,
53:53.6
who've screwed up
54:08.1
and we really need
54:13.2
this progressive program.
54:21.2
that will be hard
54:23.5
but nevertheless,
54:24.5
I think it's very,
54:28.2
the different groups
54:30.1
now on the opposition
54:35.0
as a zero-sum game.
54:38.5
to make certain concessions
54:49.0
And then finally,
55:05.4
enough with models
55:06.7
of the 20th century,
55:15.6
socialist future.
55:36.1
If you can remember
55:40.9
I wasn't born then.
55:45.4
there was going to be
55:47.4
a national democratic future.
56:04.1
make the difference
56:05.0
is the generation
56:17.3
very young stages
56:20.8
I think nine and below.
56:27.9
that that might be
56:36.7
I go back and forth
56:40.0
But nevertheless,
56:40.9
I think it's very important
56:43.2
look at the here and now
56:47.1
the possibilities
56:50.6
of the opposition
57:03.5
are just too idealistic.
57:13.5
whose time has come
57:17.4
nothing can stop it.
57:18.8
nothing can stop it.
57:20.4
Thank you very much,
57:22.4
this just tells us
57:23.1
that we need another podcast soon.
57:24.7
I think I want to have
57:25.8
another discussion with you
57:27.4
also on industrial policy.
57:29.0
one of the best episodes
57:29.9
in the year that we did
57:31.0
was episode I did
57:32.8
with Lisandro Claudio
57:34.5
of the Philippines
57:35.1
industrial policy strategy,
57:38.1
Commonwealth period
57:40.4
to post-Marcos era,
57:45.5
he's the expert on that.
57:49.2
The bureaucratic politics.
57:51.2
he has a new book
57:51.8
actually on that.
57:52.7
that was a fantastic discussion
57:53.8
because I want to talk to you too
57:56.1
a series of podcasts
57:58.3
with Sunny Africa
57:59.1
also about this issue
58:00.1
of an industrial policy
58:01.4
for the 21st century.
58:04.0
the guru of this.
58:05.2
you're one of the persons
58:06.0
who first focused really
58:07.1
on the role of technocrats
58:08.2
and how they're also
58:09.1
partly responsible
58:11.8
that we find ourselves
58:12.6
developmentally today.
58:13.8
Fastest growing economy
58:14.7
in Southeast Asia,
58:15.8
highest unemployment,
58:18.1
highest poverty rate.
58:19.3
There's something
58:19.8
fundamentally wrong here.
58:23.0
soon to discuss that.
58:25.0
I would just like to
58:27.3
for Tessa Encarnacion's
58:29.2
Marcos' Technocrats
58:31.6
is a very great study
58:40.5
and are still holding it
58:41.8
because of the ideology.
58:46.8
Thank you for giving
58:48.7
for the next episode
58:51.0
because I want to also talk
58:51.8
about what should we do
58:52.5
for the 21st century
58:54.2
and artificial intelligence
59:00.6
the industrial policy
59:01.6
like we did before
59:03.7
There's so much to discuss
59:05.3
And then don't worry,
59:08.8
We can have a fight
59:10.0
Because that's what we are.
59:11.6
We're pluralistic Democrats.
59:13.0
We can agree to disagree
59:14.3
that's what I want people
59:16.2
We can agree to disagree
59:18.9
and there's nothing wrong
59:20.4
It's just part of the debate
59:27.1
on someone's dignity
59:29.4
or something like that.
59:30.8
thank you so much,
59:33.5
you'll never sue me
59:35.9
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
59:36.9
We're safe from that.
59:38.8
you really have to
59:41.0
bring it back there.
59:44.3
of this discussion,
59:52.0
very much inspired
59:53.4
by what you're doing.
59:56.2
Marcos supporters,
59:57.6
Lenny supporters,
59:58.3
all of them watching us
60:01.0
appreciating what you're doing,
60:03.4
and talk to you soon,
60:05.9
thanks a lot, Richard.
60:06.7
I really appreciate
60:10.8
talk to you soon.
