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00:00.0
Ba't i-TikTok na, bro? Patola na ito.
00:03.5
We need to go strong on TikTok, bro.
00:05.8
Okay, let's do this.
00:08.6
So around 15-20 minutes-ish episode, we can keep it short.
00:11.7
Yung parang Ronaldo style.
00:13.2
Don't worry about it.
00:14.0
Kasi alam ko you want to jiu-jitsu or something later.
00:19.0
Bumalik na ang Ricardo.
00:22.6
Ricardo and Lisandro.
00:24.2
Ang hirap bumalik, pero ang saya bumalik.
00:27.5
Kamusta, bro? What happened sa Pilipinas?
00:30.7
We missed you. Literally.
00:40.4
Alam mo naman, pagkasal.
00:43.1
Kumabakasyon sa both sides ng papamilya.
00:47.0
Minsan walang internet.
00:48.3
O minsan sobrang bagal.
00:50.0
Pero happy naman, happy naman.
00:52.3
Ngayon nakabalik na rin ako dito sa Berkeley.
00:55.2
Which is extremely rainy.
00:57.5
So from the heat of Philippine beaches to the rainy, not so cold, the rainy cold of the Bay Area.
01:05.8
Alright, so hobby duties.
01:07.6
Okay, mga hobby duties, ganun talaga.
01:09.5
Don't worry, bro. We're not gonna hold it against you.
01:11.8
Kasi babaway ka talaga ngayon ng big time.
01:14.8
Talaga, I'm gonna juice you out. Don't worry.
01:16.8
We're not gonna make the episodes 3-hour long like before.
01:19.9
Medyo nag-gets namin na the audience for that is not as big as I thought.
01:26.8
Tapos taas pa rin.
01:27.5
Matas pa rin, ba't?
01:29.5
Since lumabas yung ranking natin ng Richard A. Dian show sa Spotify at Apple, hindi pa ako nakabalik.
01:37.8
So hindi pa ako formally nakaka-congratulate sa'yo.
01:40.3
So formally, congratulations, bro, for being the number one political podcast in the Philippines.
01:46.8
Well, I would say together with Christian Esguerra, but with it that way.
01:50.2
Para alam naman ako, I believe in competition.
01:54.0
But I was very proud kasi dun sa Spotify.
01:56.8
Medyo mahirap ang kalaban mo.
01:58.3
Yung mga kalaban mo dyan sa top 100, yung mga tipong Vice Ganda stuff, Barangay Love stuff.
02:04.6
Not to mention, ba't yung mga Jordan Peterson International, kasama rin.
02:08.1
Ito pa rin, ito pa rin.
02:08.1
Ito pa rin lang ang hindi produced na podcast.
02:16.3
Parang nga, higising, magkakita ng kape.
02:19.8
Wala, mga eyebags.
02:23.2
Don't proud ako, bro.
02:26.8
That, I would say, okay, I think we're number one non-production podcast.
02:35.4
No, but let me be very honest.
02:37.6
Thanks to collaborations with you, Ronaldo, Mark.
02:40.9
I mean, I think this was really the big part.
02:42.9
In fact, I can say personally, among the best episodes we did in the year 2023, which was a big year for our podcast,
02:49.8
was the ones I did with you, with Ronald, Mark.
02:52.3
And then yung tatlo.
02:53.9
The RRM and RRL did very, very well.
02:56.8
Bro, very, very well.
02:58.3
So, I think that means people like that.
03:02.4
Yung medyo bardagulan na dalawa-tatlo tayo nagbabardagulan.
03:06.4
But, you know naman, bro.
03:07.5
May audience team tayo.
03:09.2
Very important audience.
03:10.8
Yung nexus natin.
03:12.1
Yung medyo ilustrado, feeling pretentious version natin.
03:15.0
Which is where we're gonna start today, right?
03:16.7
Let's get back to that.
03:18.6
Speaking of ilustrado, no?
03:20.1
Speaking of ilustrado.
03:21.2
Kasi nga, saan ba nang galing ang mga ilustrado kung hindi dahil sa impluensya ng mga pare?
03:26.8
Gaya ni Jose Burgos at ni Papa P, Papa Pelayas.
03:32.4
Papa P, oo nga. Papa Pelayas, yes, yes.
03:35.9
Okay, let me first start.
03:40.2
Obviously, nakita ko doon sa mga interventions and posts mo about Gomborza.
03:45.3
Were you emotionally, you know, like, hit by it?
03:48.7
I mean, like, what was the, first of all, can you talk about the movie per se?
03:53.0
I mean, grabe, kasi una-una, sasabihin ko, Atinista.
03:56.3
I mean, grabe, kasi una-una, sasabihin ko, Atinista.
03:56.8
So, yung version ng history na linalagay sa film is usually, you know, medyo oversimplification to, medyo UP style, palaban, mapagera, and slightly at times, di ko ninalahat, slightly at times, focus on ethnicity.
04:17.3
And that's why, and that's why, you know, I had problems with Luna because it was that kind of old school.
04:23.4
Now, the UPS department is no longer like this.
04:26.8
Pero merong certain stream of the UPS department na parang old school palaban na Agoncillo, Agoncillo, sabihin na natin, okay, huwag na nating lakatin, UPS department, sabihin na natin, Teodoro Agoncillo School, na medyo palaban, medyo militant, na yun yung lumabas sa Luna.
04:44.1
Remember, Teodoro Agoncillo believed that anybody who collaborated with the Americans deserved to be shot.
04:50.8
Anybody who was negotiating deserved to be shot.
04:53.1
Sinabi niya yan sa mga libro niya.
04:55.4
And ano klaseng uncompromising?
04:56.8
That you see, see in Luna.
04:59.0
Now, you know, as an Atenista, mas moderate kami lagi.
05:01.4
We believed in thinkers, we believed in people who were moderate, we believed in liberals, and we taught, of course, the history of the church.
05:08.3
And for the first time, I saw a very Ateneo movie, historiographical approach, put on film.
05:16.0
Now, it's very obvious bakit siya Atenista kasi, of course, Jesscom yung gumawa.
05:19.6
Literally, Ateneo talagang gumawa nito.
05:21.4
And it's based on the work, not of Teodoro Agoncillo.
05:26.8
But on the work of John Schumacher.
05:29.3
Who, for me, and lumalabas lang ang Ateneo liberal bias ko dito, is at least better than Teodoro Agoncillo.
05:36.8
John Schumacher, for me, was the greatest Filipino.
05:39.8
And I might add, Filipino historian of the 20th century because Father Jack was, of course, a Filipino citizen.
05:45.9
That's the other thing I want to say about Gomburza.
05:48.5
It returns us to the fact that Filipino is not a race.
05:53.3
Filipino is an identification with a particular place.
05:56.8
That's what, I think, yun yung isa sa mga pinaka-important lessons ng Gomburza.
06:01.1
So, kaya ako tinamaan there on a very intellectual level.
06:03.7
Yung last, I love the movie.
06:06.0
It's my favorite historical movie of all time.
06:09.0
I do think, though, that they should have gotten rid of that last scene, yung cheesy scene.
06:13.5
Yung, ano, yung papakita mo yung mga katipunero na mukhang nakalinggo ng wika costume.
06:19.1
Parang masyado ng overwrought at masyado ng literal.
06:23.3
Wait, was Rizal really there? Parang child abuse yun.
06:26.8
Wala, wala, wala.
06:27.8
Wala, di ba? That's like a imagination na yung part na yun, di ba?
06:29.8
Ano ba yung nangyari?
06:30.8
This is how I would have ended the film, actually, bro.
06:32.8
Ay, di naman ako director.
06:34.8
Pero, na-imagine ko, for example, gagawa ka ng MCU-style tag scene.
06:39.8
It doesn't need to be after the credits, but just sa hirip.
06:42.8
Huwag mong ipapakita si Pepe Rizal the entire time.
06:44.8
Huwag mong siyang pakita until yung last scene.
06:46.8
And then you create a last scene whereby nasa kalamba ka tapos nandun si Paciano.
06:51.8
And then Rizal goes,
06:52.8
Kuya, tinanggap ako sa Ateneo.
06:54.8
And then Paciano goes, maganda yan, Pepe.
06:56.8
And then Pepe goes, ipapakadala ko ng pangalan ko sa kanila dahil tanggap na ako.
07:01.8
Sabi ni Paciano, Pepe, huwag mong gamitin ang pangalan na Jose Rizal Mercado.
07:07.8
And then Pepe goes, huwag mong gamitin ang pangalan na Jose Rizal Mercado.
07:12.8
So, ito yung ito.
07:14.8
Jose Rizal Mercado
07:18.3
Tapos sasabihin ni Pashano,
07:20.3
Tapos sabihin ni Pashano,
07:23.4
yung pangalan ni Mercado,
07:24.6
mainit na yan dahil sa akin,
07:25.9
malapit kasi kay Burgos.
07:28.8
ang gagamitin ko?
07:30.2
Tapos sabihin ni Pepe,
07:31.0
tapos sabihin ni Pashano,
07:32.8
Jose Rizal, Pepe.
07:36.3
Because one of the...
07:37.6
Yeah, but you could have,
07:38.8
you could start the movie that way
07:41.7
with the part when he says
07:42.8
it should be Rizal.
07:44.2
that's the explanation.
07:45.6
You could also make it that way,
07:50.0
when he was in Ateneo,
07:51.0
it was Pashano, Rizal, Mercado.
07:53.4
Right, right, right, right.
07:54.9
There is some debate
07:55.6
as to why they dropped the Mercado,
07:57.8
but according to Rizal himself,
07:59.8
and some historians
08:00.6
actually disagree with Rizal,
08:02.6
it's important that Rizal
08:05.5
According to Rizal's letters,
08:07.2
the reason why they dropped Mercado
08:08.9
is because the name Mercado
08:10.7
was already tied with Burgos
08:12.6
and was there for
08:15.5
So kaya siya naging
08:18.6
Oo, na-retag na yung pangalan
08:23.3
it's a kind of powerful statement
08:24.8
and hindi mo na kailang
08:26.7
na doon si Rizal,
08:28.7
tapos yung ano pa,
08:29.8
yung buhok pa ni Pepe,
08:33.3
when he was like 11.
08:35.9
yung buhok ni Rizal
08:36.9
ganun na when he was 11
08:38.0
until he was in his 30s.
08:39.9
masyado namang hard sell.
08:43.6
So, I loved everything
08:46.9
the ending was really
08:53.5
by what you said.
08:54.6
I completely agree with you
08:57.6
the most powerful one.
09:01.3
I was already affected
09:02.3
by how Nick Joaquin
09:04.3
described the final scenes
09:07.8
Question of Heroes,
09:08.9
the way Nick Joaquin
09:10.4
was very, very powerful.
09:11.8
So, when I watched the movie,
09:14.4
reading Nick Joaquin's
09:15.7
dun sa final scene.
09:17.4
nung patay na siya,
09:19.3
people dropped to their knees.
09:21.2
Nick Joaquin described it,
09:25.4
impression on me.
09:26.3
But I like how you put it
09:28.0
ikwento ni Pashano
09:34.1
the whole story comes
09:36.5
that means they have to
09:37.1
also remove the first part
09:38.2
where they were talking about
09:39.5
pule and, you know.
09:40.9
And then, sa end,
09:44.7
the struggle continues.
09:45.7
I mean, definitely,
09:46.4
you can slide this
09:47.1
in different ways.
09:48.0
So, interesting yung
09:48.7
insertion ng pule dun eh
09:50.8
because there were
09:52.2
proto-nationalist revolts
09:58.7
No, there was pule
09:59.7
and then there was
10:01.4
the Novalis revolt.
10:02.7
I think Novalis revolt
10:07.4
that the Novalis revolt
10:08.8
was actually more important
10:10.1
than the pule revolt.
10:11.6
Because yung kay pule naman
10:15.6
within the church.
10:16.8
Pule wanted to become
10:18.4
but he was denied.
10:19.9
So, nagkaroon siya
10:21.7
See, Novalis is more
10:22.9
interesting because
10:27.6
living in the Philippines.
10:29.2
He was a captain.
10:34.6
gained its independence,
10:36.9
Novalis made the argument
10:38.0
that since the Philippines
10:39.1
was governed out of Mexico,
10:41.1
should be independent
10:42.9
So, Novalis launched
10:44.9
and declared himself
10:45.9
the emperor of the Philippines
10:47.2
dahil naniniwala siya
10:49.4
ang Pilipinas ng Mexico.
10:50.9
So, in many ways,
10:51.9
yan ang first revolt mo
10:54.2
to free the Philippines
10:55.9
not the pule revolt.
10:58.6
a perfect continuity
11:01.5
the Creole revolts
11:05.6
but also with Palais.
11:07.2
I was just looking
11:07.7
at the pictures of Palais.
11:11.4
if I could put it that way.
11:14.2
he could pass easy
11:15.6
Parang sa tingin ko,
11:18.8
alam ko yung ginagawa
11:20.6
Parang sinosofen niya
11:22.5
And what's the blow there?
11:24.4
is that these people
11:26.9
kukonek mo na lang siya
11:32.8
it's not as white
11:35.4
And then you cast
11:40.5
Yes, like totally white.
11:41.7
You can see the pictures.
11:42.9
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
11:45.2
could have looked
11:45.9
a little bit like Cedric Juan
11:55.3
yung tatay niya puti.
11:58.1
Ang itsura ni Burgos
12:08.2
more like Moorish pa eh.
12:09.9
nakita ko yung pictures
12:12.7
more to the north eh.
12:14.3
More northern European
12:18.3
kung pag-isipan mong gano'n
12:21.0
Hindi pa ata tayong
12:25.0
bilang isang bayan
12:35.9
hindi pa handa dyan.
12:36.8
Isipin mo yung Ateneo ha.
12:43.4
Ang tawag nila doon
12:46.2
Ibig sabihin Ateneo mismo
12:51.9
Eh, paano naging lahi yan
12:53.9
kung yung mga bayani mo
12:56.7
at saka ni Burgos?
12:58.3
Hindi talaga yung lahi.
12:59.7
we're more Latina
13:04.3
of being a Colombiano
13:05.6
or being a Mexicano
13:07.1
doesn't mean you're like
13:09.6
you could be like
13:10.9
look like those guys
13:12.9
completely Spanish
13:14.0
or you can look like
13:15.5
Hollywood Mexican actors
13:16.8
who look like Pinoys
13:19.9
we should go back to that.
13:20.9
Ano ba talaga yung
13:21.2
Pilipino sa kanila?
13:22.5
I mean, minabasa akong quote
13:25.1
Ano bang problema nyo
13:26.8
sa aming kumakain
13:27.7
hindi kumakain ng tinapay
13:29.1
kundi kumakain ng kanin?
13:31.1
Ah, right, right.
13:32.2
That's interesting.
13:33.4
So, hindi kulay ng
13:34.3
hindi kulay ng balat
13:38.6
Cultural practices, yeah.
13:39.9
Oh, cultural practices.
13:42.6
yung mga peninsulares
13:44.5
kumakain ng tinapay
13:47.9
at saka yung mga Indyo
13:49.8
na magiging Pilipino
13:51.0
kumakain ng kanin.
13:53.4
So, these are very interesting quotes
13:54.7
that reveal to us
13:55.6
what really Filipino is
13:56.6
kumakain ng kanin.
13:57.5
That's a very important one.
13:59.2
from Jose Rizal naman is
14:01.0
some of us are Criolo
14:02.1
yung favorite line ko
14:03.6
some of us are Criolo
14:04.7
some of us are Malayan
14:05.6
some of us are Chinese
14:07.5
but we all call ourselves
14:09.7
So, ano letter yan?
14:12.6
I don't give a doubt.
14:14.1
Please forward mo sa akin
14:15.0
pag nahanap mo na yan.
14:16.8
that's a very important one.
14:18.4
So, going back to this
14:19.6
Google mo lang yun.
14:21.4
We call ourselves Filipino.
14:22.5
We call ourselves
14:23.0
So, kung gusto mo
14:24.7
yung checking citation.
14:26.1
So, going back to this
14:27.5
the omission of Navales
14:30.3
deliberate way of
14:31.7
you know, softening the blow
14:32.7
maybe as you put it
14:33.8
but at the same time
14:35.7
this goes back to
14:38.6
the Diliman Consensus
14:41.7
the true revolutionism
14:45.6
mukhang quote-unquote
14:48.1
I mean, it was not only
14:52.2
aside from Agoncillo
14:54.2
was very harsh on him
14:57.3
which really synthesized
14:58.3
our national aspiration
14:59.2
and yet we consider him
15:00.6
a national leader
15:01.4
I mean, essentially
15:02.6
he's a counter-revolutionary
15:03.8
because at that last moment
15:05.2
he didn't support
15:06.6
although there are
15:08.2
why he didn't do that
15:09.0
aside from, you know
15:09.7
not being revolutionary enough
15:12.1
do you think that
15:13.6
may kasalanan talagang
15:17.3
a very cosmopolitan
15:22.3
there's a Marxist
15:26.0
dapat working class
15:27.0
yung revolutionary
15:28.6
it should be kind of
15:32.5
yung kind of yes or no history
15:37.3
revolutionary yan
15:38.2
hindi revolutionary yan
15:47.5
everything is an either
15:49.0
or in this kind of
15:52.5
so I think it's about
15:53.2
time to live in yung
15:54.9
where being a Filipino
15:58.8
constant negotiation
16:00.1
which is important
16:02.2
because when I interviewed
16:05.3
before making this movie
16:06.7
he was going around
16:07.7
Italy and all of that
16:08.6
and he was talking to
16:10.0
the Italy as we know
16:13.1
continuation of the
16:15.9
until only around
16:18.0
actually parang kapanahon
16:20.1
yung mga founding fathers
16:23.2
yung Italians are made
16:24.9
Italians are made
16:26.9
it's a nationalist project
16:30.4
if you're Siciliano
16:32.2
you're very different
16:33.2
from someone from
16:36.2
features are very
16:38.1
from south of Italy
16:40.1
all the way to the north
16:41.9
I had some friends
16:42.5
from north who told me
16:43.4
oh we're more Austrian
16:47.3
is very different
16:49.8
that's their joke
16:50.8
we're more like Austrian
16:51.9
we're almost German
16:53.2
and then of course
16:54.4
the one in the south
16:55.6
they make racial joke
16:57.2
that they're almost like
16:58.9
or something like that
17:00.0
I thought that was
17:07.0
do you think this movie
17:08.2
in contributing to
17:09.0
a proper discourse
17:10.4
because I don't know
17:11.0
if today aminin natin
17:13.5
that appeals to the public
17:14.5
so you need some cheesy part
17:17.8
to make commercial sense
17:19.1
and make it appealing
17:21.5
tuloy-tuloy pa rin ito
17:22.4
sa mga malalaking cinema
17:23.7
and many were ashamed
17:25.5
but it's also about
17:29.0
right or self-described
17:30.6
we have to be shocked
17:31.7
into having proper
17:32.5
discourse on this
17:33.2
and not be satisfied
17:34.1
with what we inherited
17:36.0
how do you see that
17:36.6
I think part naman siya
17:39.0
ng progress datin
17:44.5
Diliman Consensus
17:46.3
Constantino School
17:47.3
konti na lang naman
17:48.4
yung naniniwala dyan
17:52.3
who were raised on that
17:55.5
60s and 70s yun eh
17:59.2
slash counter-revolutionary
18:08.8
pinupuruhan ko talaga
18:09.7
yung General Luna
18:10.3
no I really don't like
18:12.6
I'm on the record
18:13.4
saying that you know
18:14.2
that helped create Duterte
18:15.3
so dapat talagang
18:17.0
puruhan yung sining yun
18:19.3
we as a community
18:24.1
in Philippine history
18:29.3
may isa pang sining
18:30.2
na medyo ganto eh
18:31.2
na ginagamit ko rin
18:32.6
yung ganito kami noon
18:33.5
paano kayo ngayon
18:34.5
na napaka-fluid din
18:36.3
of what Filipino is
18:37.3
and it's one of the few films
18:39.1
na hindi overacting
18:40.0
si Christopher De Leon
18:41.8
that's a good way
18:45.5
so I wanna keep it short
18:46.8
not go too much about it
18:47.8
I wanna just go back
18:48.6
a little bit to Rizal
18:49.4
and some of the discussions
18:50.7
you had with some of the historians
18:52.1
na kisausalo na ako
18:54.1
emphasis on Schumacher
18:56.3
we had some discussion
18:57.0
about Benedict Anderson
18:58.0
I know it will be
18:58.7
a little bit historiographical
18:59.7
but I think you're the person
19:00.9
best person to talk to
19:02.1
so shortly balikan natin
19:03.4
question of Rizal
19:05.3
what is a true revolutionary
19:07.5
the first Filipino
19:09.0
we touched on those things
19:10.7
but I wanna go deeper
19:11.8
thank you very much
19:12.5
for that Dr. Lysandra Claudio
19:13.9
joining us from UC Berkeley
19:15.2
I'm just saying that
19:15.8
lalo kasi mga iba
19:16.6
ng bagong audience
19:18.7
so I have to just
19:20.9
thank you very much
19:22.4
alright fantastic
19:27.0
it's almost 1am here
19:28.7
but we have friends
19:30.1
TikTok, YouTube, Facebook
19:31.9
that's how interesting
19:33.4
in the previous episode was
19:35.4
the movie Gomborza
19:36.3
Pepe Jocton's movie
19:38.8
right off the bat
19:40.4
my major disagreements
19:44.2
I think the final scenes
19:45.1
were very important
19:45.9
but I explained that
19:46.7
a lot of that was also
19:47.5
because I was influenced
19:48.4
by Nick Joaquin's
19:52.4
I just felt that was important
19:55.2
it's a movie after all
19:57.5
gusto ko yung last moment
19:59.0
ayaw ko na pinakita si Rizal
20:03.8
then we don't have
20:10.0
parang child abuse yan
20:12.2
like what are you implying
20:13.5
you won't bring a
20:14.2
7, 8, 9 year old kid
20:17.8
it's a bit too crazy for me
20:21.6
magtitinikling na ba sila
20:22.9
I mean I get what you were saying
20:25.1
sana we just kept it
20:28.0
the darkness of it
20:29.5
should really shock us
20:30.8
historical consciousness
20:33.0
I really appreciate that
20:35.5
Cedric is fantastic
20:37.3
I mean all actors
20:45.0
ang hindi ni Enchong D
20:45.8
actually si Enchong D
20:47.0
yung hindi na magandang
20:48.2
actor for me doon
20:49.7
again Cedric was fantastic
20:53.4
that he was playing
20:54.3
he brought to life
20:56.1
yung nangyari kay Zamora
20:59.9
nakakatapos ko lang mag-review
21:01.2
at magbasa ng mga libro
21:02.2
ni Patricia Vangelista
21:05.7
weaponization of the legal process
21:07.8
so I think the Zamora
21:11.5
just brings to home
21:13.2
how crazy our legal systems
21:16.4
who just made a joke
21:19.4
in the context of
21:21.3
will be just dragging
21:22.7
because of affiliation
21:24.0
and let's be honest
21:25.0
that's kind of like
21:30.0
that was very pulsating
21:33.9
of the judicial process
21:36.8
especially Zamora's case
21:39.4
it was really crazy
21:40.9
bumalik na rin ulit tayo
21:43.6
I think that's a good way
21:44.5
of starting this discussion still
21:46.1
what do you want to talk about ba?
21:49.4
I wanted to talk about
21:51.5
ano ba talaga yung relevance
21:52.8
yung year na yun?
21:55.3
why were we so focused
21:57.9
a good way to think about
21:59.1
and I've been pushing this
22:07.3
of the worst repressions
22:08.9
in Philippine history
22:13.8
wherein the Spanish government
22:17.4
the secularization movement
22:19.2
that were considered
22:21.9
and then of course
22:23.0
and then yung liberal movement
22:31.8
between the liberals
22:33.0
and the communists
22:38.1
yung mga movements
22:39.6
that were organizing
22:40.1
against the government
22:41.4
or were critical of the government
22:42.7
were driven underground
22:45.1
some of them were also
22:46.0
driven into exile
22:49.0
driven into exile
22:59.9
ng Spanish government
23:04.1
the very simple answer
23:09.9
the precedents of Mexico
23:12.1
the precedents of Mexico
23:16.4
yung mga revolusionaryo
23:17.8
na pare sa Mexico
23:18.6
parang mas radical sila
23:20.7
kaysa sa mga revolusionaryo
23:23.1
these were people
23:25.0
flaunting Spanish laws
23:28.0
actively advocating
23:30.7
and armed rebellion
23:31.7
that would happen
23:32.6
much later sa Pilipinas
23:38.5
the revolutionary
23:42.7
ay dahil yung mga
23:49.2
pero nung time na to
23:50.6
what the Spanish government
23:52.7
yung nangyari sa Mexico
23:54.6
maulit sa Pilipinas
23:56.2
and when they saw
23:57.5
when they saw Burgos
24:04.1
yung mga Mexican radicals
24:06.9
forestall that movement
24:08.0
and it's very interesting
24:08.9
you know what happens
24:25.6
meaning takot na talaga
24:27.7
ng isa pang Burgos
24:29.5
yung mga intellectuals mo
24:30.6
they're no longer priests
24:35.7
tignan mo yung trajectory
24:36.5
yung mga radical mo
24:43.3
you couldn't become
24:45.2
priest intellectual anymore
24:46.7
the way you became
24:48.0
a critical intellectual
24:52.8
so yun yung two movements
24:55.4
so what are you saying
24:57.5
this secular friars
25:00.2
were like judicial experts
25:01.7
they were kind of
25:06.5
sobrang galing nila
25:10.0
the people forget
25:11.8
nung panahon na yun
25:14.5
sa bar last year ha
25:15.7
number one ulit yung UST
25:19.8
ang kananlaw program mo
25:23.8
sa mga kananlaw program
25:30.1
at saka teacher ng UST
25:35.8
na padating sa Pilipinas
25:38.9
yung mga parating
25:39.5
na parale sa Pilipinas
25:40.4
couple of reasons
25:42.0
nung binuksan yung Suez Canal
25:45.0
tumuto sa Pilipinas
25:48.9
to get to the Philippines
25:55.5
magkakaroon ka ng
25:57.1
liberal government
25:57.9
ngayon kung liberal government
25:59.1
ka at kung conservative
26:00.7
gusto mong takbukan
26:01.8
yung liberal government
26:02.7
pupunta ng Pilipinas
26:07.8
so kung parale ka
26:10.4
mahina ka sa Spain
26:11.8
ayaw mo yung liberal government
26:13.2
gusto mong kumita
26:14.2
dahil maraming lupa
26:15.1
yung order mo sa Pilipinas
26:16.4
pupunta ng Pilipinas
26:17.3
so what's happening
26:18.4
during this period
26:19.0
yung native priests
26:30.9
dinadala mo sa Pilipinas
26:41.5
humihingi ng privileges
26:43.5
what does it feel like
26:45.3
to be a very smart person
26:46.9
being lorded over
26:48.6
it must piss you off
26:51.2
it must really piss you off
26:52.4
and who had almost
26:54.5
blood and features
26:56.4
because I found the
26:57.2
I found the scene
27:05.1
emphasizing lugar
27:07.7
now even the most
27:11.8
was at the end of the day
27:13.6
had this strict notion
27:15.4
which a lot of these friars
27:17.0
were subscribing to
27:18.7
but I have one question
27:20.3
and I know we can talk
27:23.1
I won't say controversial
27:24.1
but one of the things
27:24.7
that stood out for me
27:26.6
Jesuits were behind
27:28.2
and I think we have to
27:29.1
keep on emphasizing
27:34.5
aside from Pepe Jocno
27:35.6
and the fantastic team
27:36.4
one of the argument
27:38.0
di ba yung sinabi
27:39.7
tayong sisisiin nila
27:41.9
ng nangyaring mali
27:44.2
the rot in the apple
27:47.5
imperial machinery
27:56.0
in the late 19th century
27:57.1
barely holding on
27:60.0
facing serious problems
28:01.0
in the Philippines
28:04.9
do you see that thesis
28:17.1
step back din naman
28:18.6
madaling santoyin si Pepe
28:20.0
pero si Pepe naman talaga
28:33.3
sa annotation of morga
28:36.0
many of the friars
28:38.0
Philippine culture
28:38.9
which is absolutely
28:41.4
a lot of the friars
28:42.7
they were the ones
28:47.9
silabari for example
28:48.8
a lot of it comes out
28:50.9
kung walang friars
28:51.6
wala tayong appreciation
28:52.6
ng culture na yon
28:57.6
kararating pa lang
29:09.6
do in the Philippines
29:15.3
out of the new colony
29:16.4
ang mga humaharang dun
29:21.2
in the 16th century
29:22.2
yung synod of Manila
29:23.5
which explicitly said na
29:27.8
wala kang absolution
29:33.3
so a lot of that history
29:36.7
by the radicalism
29:39.0
Rizal was kind of radical
29:40.4
and as with anything
29:45.7
hindi mo tatanggapin
29:46.5
dapat tanggapin mo na
29:47.6
during Rizal's time
29:49.3
abusive naman talaga
29:51.0
lalo na in states
29:54.0
but at the same time
29:56.1
totoo yung sinasabi
29:58.4
bulok na yung mga friars
30:06.2
especially I have a student
30:12.4
proto-liberal traditions
30:14.0
under the influence
30:16.6
named Father Suarez
30:18.0
was actually sent
30:18.8
to the Philippines
30:24.1
that would be absorbed
30:25.0
by the Philippine Revolution
30:27.0
these earlier forms
30:28.9
within the fire orders
30:30.3
and you need to recall
30:32.1
that the major critique
30:35.5
had come from the friars
30:37.2
kaya nung dumating na sila
30:39.6
ready na makipagbangayan
30:42.1
against the conquistadors
30:47.7
you cannot bleed it dry
30:53.2
so kaya nga hindi nangyari
30:54.2
yung genocidal level
30:56.8
with conquistadors
30:58.1
that's a very good
31:00.4
and may declining
31:02.6
significant declining
31:11.1
and one of the differences
31:14.0
intellectual movement
31:15.5
within the friars
31:16.2
towards a kind of
31:21.5
mayroon din aspect of
31:23.0
hindi naman monolithic
31:29.3
na more reactionary
31:36.7
liberal yung government
31:37.6
especially I mean
31:38.2
you mentioned this
31:39.2
dun sa isang libro mo na
31:40.6
isa sa mga favorite
31:41.4
kung libro sa Pilipinas
31:42.8
Liberalism and Postcolony
31:46.1
the Cadiz Constitution
31:47.7
probably in a way
31:49.2
reinforced yung reactionary
31:52.0
because it was a huge leap
31:54.4
Spain of the 17th century
31:59.2
and then of course
32:03.0
nagkakaroon ka na
32:05.6
nagkakaroon pa na talaga
32:07.2
in Spanish society
32:12.6
in the Spanish Civil War
32:14.4
in the 20th century
32:21.2
you chose the liberals
32:22.4
slash republicans
32:24.9
the conservatives
32:25.6
who were claiming
32:26.8
to protect the church
32:32.9
enlightened university
32:34.1
like the University
32:42.9
klaseng polarization
32:45.0
a lot of the friars
32:52.2
what I'm saying is
32:55.3
yun nga hindi monolithic
32:56.4
which is what you tend
33:00.3
eto yung mga pinakaugat
33:05.0
sinasabi sa movie
33:07.9
were the scapegoat
33:10.6
inherent brutality
33:11.6
of the imperial regime
33:12.6
reactionary imperial regime
33:14.0
towards the end of
33:15.0
in fact the part where
33:16.1
the bishop of Manila
33:20.1
their priestly vest
33:23.3
historically correct?
33:26.5
historically correct
33:35.8
like Benedict Anderson
33:38.2
the usual suspects
33:40.7
cited Jack Schumacher
33:42.1
because he was like
33:43.2
he styled himself
33:43.9
as a new left radical
33:48.3
more conservative
33:53.6
totoo yung part na yan
33:55.1
although of course
33:56.3
di ba may intervention
34:00.8
back and forth mo
34:01.6
what's the name of
34:02.3
that Filipino scholar
34:07.8
during the American
34:12.7
that's so impressive
34:16.2
dissertation niya
34:18.3
I didn't read the whole thing
34:19.1
but from what I gathered
34:23.4
like the Americans
34:24.5
didn't start with
34:27.0
with the Catholic
34:29.2
which they didn't
34:29.8
make protest time
34:30.6
galing nung analysis niya
34:32.5
sanang at one point
34:34.9
mapunta ni Jethro
34:35.8
yung issue ng Lasal
34:39.1
diba pareho time ni Lasal
34:43.1
Lasal in many ways
34:44.2
was supposed to be
34:45.0
the American face
34:47.9
kasi American colonial
34:49.1
government yung nagsabi
34:50.7
Lasal brothers dito
34:53.6
the American Catholics
34:55.3
compete with these
35:03.8
very very good point
35:05.3
I had no idea about it
35:06.3
I spent quite some time
35:09.0
American Catholicism
35:14.6
that's that's incredible
35:15.4
I had no idea about it
35:16.2
now going back to this
35:20.2
with both of you gentlemen
35:22.2
with the other gentlemen
35:24.7
one of the reasons
35:26.6
appreciate Schumacher
35:28.5
I fervently disagree
35:30.7
on the question of
35:32.5
counter-revolutionary
35:35.0
Benedict Anderson
35:38.1
ginawa niya about Rizal
35:39.2
he mentioned that
35:40.8
it was the Schumacher
35:43.4
that was decisive
35:44.5
particularly in this
35:45.3
letter where he argued
35:46.1
about quote-unquote
35:47.3
I mean more or less
35:48.3
preconditions for a
35:49.6
successful revolution
35:50.6
kasi kung magbara-bara
35:52.0
ka mag-revolution
35:52.6
which is more or less
35:53.6
what happened under
35:54.2
a certain gentleman
35:54.9
you're just gonna get
35:56.6
people killed in vain
35:57.6
so if you wanna do
35:58.6
a successful revolution
35:59.5
and you wanna make sure
36:00.3
there are at least
36:00.7
four or five conditions
36:01.9
met including of course
36:03.9
my imperial overstitch
36:05.2
which was coming about
36:14.6
against revolution
36:21.4
and I think this is
36:22.6
where Benedict Anderson's
36:23.6
intervention was helpful
36:24.6
I don't know if you
36:25.5
his idea was that
36:26.4
dahil nasa dapitan
36:30.6
ng you know what I'm saying
36:31.5
circulation of proper
36:33.0
siguro hindi siya
36:36.2
gaano ka talagang
36:38.5
itong Spanish Empire niyan
36:40.5
mas well informed
36:46.8
and how vulnerable
36:47.5
they were at that moment
36:48.4
except he was not
36:50.4
who was successful
36:52.3
to his logical limit
36:53.1
I mean what do you say
36:56.9
lahat ng revolusyonaryo
37:00.4
lahat ng revolusyonaryo
37:01.2
hindi naman naamin
37:02.8
ang revolusyonaryo
37:03.9
ng full intent nila
37:05.5
this is what we forget
37:12.0
kasi hindi mo naman alam
37:13.8
kasi hindi ka naman naamin
37:16.0
kung umamin ka eh
37:22.0
a colony in Borneo
37:23.6
that he was doing that
37:24.7
in order to build
37:25.8
a revolutionary army
37:27.5
hindi ka naman naamin eh
37:29.3
and if you look at
37:31.1
ang magandang example dito
37:34.7
marami sa mga gusto
37:36.2
mag-revolusyonang pa nyo
37:37.2
hindi naman papahuli buhay
37:39.4
nakikipag-meeting
37:41.3
ready mag-arm revolt
37:42.8
nagbibigay ng pera
37:44.5
nagbibigay ng pera
37:46.0
at ng barel sa CPP
37:48.8
aamin ni ba nyo yun
37:50.3
aba nung nauli siya
37:52.9
na ginagawa niya yun
37:55.9
kasi hindi ka naman
37:57.5
lahat ng revolusyonaryo
37:58.9
hindi mo papahuling buhay yan
38:00.7
under repressive circumstances
38:03.9
when we ask the question
38:06.2
was Borgo's revolusyonary
38:07.6
we need to take into
38:08.9
consideration the fact
38:17.3
I mean it's a game of
38:18.2
cloak and dagger also
38:19.9
you're a revolusyonary
38:21.4
I mean it's essentially
38:23.3
that's what he does
38:24.1
in El Filibusterismo
38:25.1
the other side of Rizal
38:26.3
I mean if you read
38:26.9
El Filibusterismo
38:28.1
pretty much it's clear
38:29.3
that Rizal is for revolution
38:30.5
but for the right
38:32.6
ayon yung ginawa ni Simon
38:33.8
ayon yung ginawa ni Simon
38:33.9
just out of hatred
38:36.7
anarchist style of
38:41.4
going back to Schumacher
38:43.3
Schumacher says that
38:51.9
he did not believe
38:52.7
that the Philippines
38:55.4
separatist na siya
39:02.3
I'll just connect it na lang
39:03.8
so what you're arguing
39:05.5
Schumacher mentions
39:10.3
pressed something
39:13.2
yung initial propaganda
39:15.7
movement sa Spain
39:24.1
they talked about that
39:25.7
the way a Catalan
39:29.6
but I'm also Spaniard
39:35.7
si Rizal used that
39:41.4
Basque or Catalan
39:44.0
when Rizal used Filipino
39:45.8
ibig sabihin niya
39:46.5
hiwalay na talaga yun
39:49.5
it was just a matter
39:53.1
paano ka makakarating dun
39:55.4
the inevitability
39:58.3
so it's a tactical
39:59.3
rather than a strategic
40:03.6
tactical lang siya
40:04.8
deny na pro-independence
40:11.5
Katipunan is of course
40:13.8
of La Liga Filipina
40:15.0
breakaway radical
40:16.0
section of La Liga Filipina
40:19.7
the name Katipunan
40:20.8
Katipunan is in many ways
40:29.7
the Spanish government
40:32.2
ang founder ng Katipunan
40:36.6
Bonifacio and the rest
40:38.2
tatagin mo silang sinungaling
40:39.6
kasi ayaw mo maniwala
40:40.7
doon sa mga pasis
40:43.0
you know with Marcos
40:44.8
was the greatest supporter
40:46.6
Aquino was the greatest
40:48.0
supporter of the CPP
40:49.1
sasabi mo ang Marcos
40:50.3
hindi sinungaling ka
40:52.5
in certain respects
41:08.0
to go as a doctor
41:15.1
I just have to raise that
41:16.0
kasi some are using
41:18.8
if Rizal was really
41:20.4
why would he do that
41:25.7
about his intentions
41:26.9
through intention
41:27.4
what was going on there
41:28.3
I read about this
41:29.8
pero a lot of people
41:34.5
na nag-sign up siya
41:37.6
that's very common
41:41.5
hindi ka naman papatay
41:47.8
part of it seems like
41:50.7
parang depressed na siya
41:54.7
in contemporary parlance
41:56.8
it was a mental health
41:59.1
that's what I think
42:00.8
there was a kind of
42:03.6
in the pitan already
42:04.7
and he just wanted out
42:08.5
was it the most ideal move
42:10.1
was it katraiduran
42:15.4
and he saw an exit
42:18.9
were smart enough
42:21.9
showing his fealty
42:24.9
this was just his way
42:29.9
may likang bumaya
42:30.7
imagine if somebody
42:31.8
clipped your wings
42:32.8
dito ka lang sa mint
42:35.0
mamabaliw ka talaga
42:36.5
may kitikitika rin
42:40.0
I mean I love Manila
42:41.9
but if I stay there
42:42.7
straight more than a month
42:43.6
like I need to move
42:46.9
that's where you get
42:51.4
he wanted the third part
42:52.9
so probably wanted to
42:53.6
go to Paris eventually
42:54.5
somewhere else and all
42:55.5
now I have another
42:58.0
there's this also part
42:59.7
whereby Marcelo del Pilar
43:01.0
which I think is a very
43:03.6
Rizal actually gave up
43:05.2
integrationist approach
43:06.8
but Marcelo del Pilar
43:07.9
mentioned that in 1890
43:09.2
may mga intermediaries
43:11.0
and interlocutors
43:14.6
or something like that
43:15.7
they tried to push for
43:18.2
na yun na bubukas kami
43:19.9
ng what they called that
43:30.9
governor general mo
43:33.4
whatever he wants
43:34.2
and one of the powers
43:37.8
without a court decision
43:38.9
so some sort of due process
43:40.2
there'll be a new party
43:41.3
open to young Filipinos
43:43.0
may bagong dyaryo
43:46.5
ito yung sinabi ni
43:48.7
sila raw ay magtatayon
43:50.9
isang periyodikong dyaryo
43:54.2
sa periyodikong yan
43:55.2
dun sa letter niya
43:56.8
ang hiningin lang
43:59.1
ay huwag natin silang
44:01.3
referring to the friars
44:02.4
what do you think about
44:05.5
cooptation strategy
44:08.4
smoke and mirrors
44:09.8
what was going on there?
44:13.0
I'd like to grant
44:14.3
that meron naman talagang
44:17.2
Spanish colonial bureaucracy
44:19.1
na more accommodationist
44:20.6
and then they realized na
44:22.8
yung demands ng mga Pilipino
44:26.1
they were not the most
44:27.4
unreasonable demands
44:30.9
I think one of the reasons
44:31.8
why na-radicalize si Rizal
44:34.7
lang naman ang demands namin
44:35.9
hindi nyo tinutugunan
44:38.2
secularization of the parishes
44:40.7
secular education
44:44.1
freedom of speech
44:45.8
freedom of assembly
44:46.6
basic liberal rights
44:47.8
hindi mo tinugunan
44:49.1
yung basic liberal rights
44:51.2
and I think by this point
44:52.5
Rizal was just like
44:53.6
we've tried so many times
44:55.4
just because they said
44:56.6
just because sinabi nito ngayon
44:58.3
hindi ibig sabihin na
45:00.7
yun yung reading ko doon
45:03.3
na siguro by this time
45:04.6
parang over na si Rizal dyan
45:06.5
kaya talaga ano eh
45:07.7
umalis na talaga siya ng Spanya
45:11.7
ilapit sa pasyente
45:14.3
kaya umuwi na siya ng Pilipinas eh
45:16.5
which tells you like
45:17.3
he wanted to bring revolution
45:19.6
and wala na yung mga
45:24.8
just last question
45:28.1
on the Rizal thing
45:29.1
what do you think about
45:30.7
racialization of Rizal
45:32.9
because obviously
45:33.6
he was not Creole
45:35.2
he had a very strong
45:37.1
I saw a wax of him
45:38.3
doon sa isang post ni
45:42.1
he could look like
45:42.7
the guys nearby here
45:47.1
ano bang alam natin talaga
45:49.4
alam ba si Chinoy ba siya
45:52.4
like what was going on there
45:56.3
actually just Mestizo
45:57.5
nakakalimutan natin
45:59.0
na in the 19th century
45:59.9
if you said Mestizo
46:00.8
you meant Chinese Mestizo
46:04.2
if you did not put qualifiers
46:06.3
you just said Mestizo
46:07.2
ibig sabihin ng Chinese
46:09.9
Rizal was part of that
46:11.5
he's Chinese the way
46:15.0
ganyan kasing Mestizo Chinese
46:18.3
highly acculturated
46:19.6
highly nationalist
46:22.1
yung mga Mestizo are
46:23.1
they're the people
46:29.8
very very nationalist
46:30.7
but also very very
46:32.5
neighboring Malaysia
46:35.3
that when I read about it
46:37.3
the Chinese Malaysian
46:38.6
played a very important role
46:41.1
formalizing yung bahasa
46:43.2
as we understand it today
46:44.6
I mean I had no idea
46:50.7
kailangan basahin dyan
46:58.4
one of my favorite
47:07.8
are you kidding me
47:09.4
diba meron siyang
47:34.6
in the 16th century
47:40.1
Manila was a trading port
47:41.3
and if you wanted to trade
47:42.3
you had to speak Malay
47:49.5
as a Malayan race
47:52.0
there's such a thing
47:53.4
as Austronesian speakers
47:56.1
most of Southeast Asia
48:03.7
is partly a function
48:06.7
mag-isip yung mga tao
48:09.4
current Prime Minister
48:11.9
kung nung panahon
48:13.9
umunta siya sa Pilipinas
48:15.8
napakaraming lecture
48:16.9
tungkol kay Rizal
48:17.7
about Rizal being
48:21.4
I don't want to be
48:22.8
I don't want to be
48:24.0
ungenerous to our
48:24.8
Malaysian friends
48:32.7
pakialaman ng ganyan
48:34.0
hindi kami kagaya nyo
48:36.2
kailangan kinakategorize
48:37.4
based on their race
48:40.1
bumiputra politics
48:42.1
bumiputra politics here
48:43.6
thankfully we're not
48:45.2
na remember si Anwar
48:47.1
nung panahon ngayon
48:48.5
post-racial na si Anwar
48:53.4
he was slated to become
48:54.7
the Prime Minister
48:59.1
race supremacist party
49:01.8
of a Malay supremacist party
49:04.5
itutawagin niyang si Rizal
49:05.7
ng pride of Malayan race
49:07.1
dito sa Pilipinas
49:08.4
dahil meron siyang
49:09.6
may political reason
49:11.2
for him to do that
49:12.8
okay to top that off
49:16.8
as the pride of the Malayan people
49:19.2
ayaw talaga tumatay
49:20.8
so I'm just telling you
49:23.1
ni Mahatir pa rin
49:24.3
yung protégé niya
49:25.3
if you wanna bring Rizal
49:26.9
even si Pakyao din
49:31.5
when you say Malay race
49:32.9
kasama rin mga Thai siguro doon
49:36.1
like anything but Chinese
49:40.2
why don't you just
49:41.2
why don't you just say
49:42.2
Southeast Asian pride
49:44.0
the pride of Asia
49:45.3
pride of Southeast Asia
49:48.9
you're absolutely right
49:50.2
yung mga Malaysians
49:50.9
maybe they also should keep quiet
49:52.5
about our South China Sea policy
49:57.3
isang paan war ha
49:58.6
hindi ka nga tumutulong
50:02.1
thank you so much
50:02.8
I really enjoyed this episode
50:04.9
thank you very much bro
50:05.8
I really had to bring out
50:08.0
yeah he was going to Cuba
50:11.5
that argument is raised
50:13.8
Rizal from Ateneo
50:15.2
thank you so much bro
50:20.2
more contemporary
50:21.3
last episode natin
50:23.8
we had a lot of discussion
50:27.5
ang dami natin na cover
50:29.3
just roughly 40-45 minutes
50:30.9
that was fantastic
50:31.3
medyo nagbash ka rin
50:33.3
I don't want to talk about it
50:34.4
baka I get into trouble
50:37.6
balikan natin eto
50:39.2
so recently I got into
50:41.0
into trouble again
50:44.2
for Journal of Democracy
50:45.3
you know the title is
50:46.9
The Sun Also Rises
50:48.1
which is not my title
50:49.8
it's kind of sounds
50:51.1
like the title of
50:55.2
yung mga post nila
50:56.5
nung time nung election
50:58.2
I'm not disowning it
50:59.3
many people liked it anyway
51:02.4
no I think it was
51:03.5
I think it was cool
51:06.3
dun sa opening lines
51:08.3
of course I used the term
51:10.9
you know everyone expected
51:14.4
and what came out
51:15.2
is kind of a weird
51:19.6
on South China Sea
51:21.4
pseudo in fairness
51:22.1
on the South China Sea
51:24.2
is interpreting it
51:27.1
which is something
51:28.3
actually I'm beginning
51:29.7
na I've been enjoying
51:36.5
so big R talaga oh
51:38.5
matagal ng big pala
51:40.6
matagal ka nang big R
51:43.3
diligado tayo dyan
51:47.7
many people don't read that
51:49.1
towards the end of the article
51:50.0
I still argue that
51:51.1
I'm still standing
51:53.0
Journal of Democracy
51:54.8
he could still become
51:55.7
an insidious threat
51:56.7
to Philippine democracy
51:58.7
Chacha discussion
51:59.4
now before going to
52:00.1
the whole Chacha debate
52:01.4
I just want to get
52:02.1
your point of view
52:03.3
but don't you think
52:08.6
pero parang yung mga
52:09.5
western countries
52:10.3
masyado ba silang
52:12.2
tayo Marcos bigla
52:17.7
ikaw anong basa mo dito
52:19.1
kasi I think you and I
52:20.7
hindi siya naging
52:25.7
but at the same time
52:26.8
I think we're falling
52:27.6
into a different fallacy
52:28.7
which is we're overreading
52:31.4
so I'm gonna be bashed
52:32.2
now by the BBM people
52:33.9
ikaw yung nagsabi sa akin
52:35.1
na maragi ka nakakausap
52:37.3
sa diplomatic community
52:38.6
na ang unang tanong
52:40.3
kamusta na po si Dete nyo
52:41.7
how's the president
52:46.2
defer to you on that
52:47.8
babalikan ko lang
52:48.5
yung kwento na yun
52:49.0
when I think about
52:50.9
western countries
52:53.4
yung mga interactions
52:56.6
so makatanong lang kita
52:59.2
klaseng interactions
53:02.2
but the other thing is
53:03.4
I'm not gonna say
53:05.8
international magazine
53:07.8
I'm not gonna say
53:10.7
we were talking about
53:11.4
you know diplomats
53:12.9
and parang sinabi niya
53:13.9
parang shock siya
53:15.1
na yung mga western
53:16.0
diplomats in general
53:21.0
parang invested sila dyan
53:23.9
where that comes from
53:29.2
you know what I'm saying
53:31.0
I just wanna make sure
53:32.1
that people don't get ahead
53:35.5
I realized with BBM
53:37.1
alam niyo yung term
53:38.2
na ginamit ni Bernie Sanders
53:43.2
at least you can keep her
53:46.4
there will be some
53:48.5
and accountability
53:49.6
which you'll not get
53:51.1
my sense with Duterte
53:53.5
getting accountable
53:55.1
I feel if you pressure him
53:57.7
he will be responsive
53:59.3
especially from outside
54:01.0
so ang fear ko is
54:02.4
baka sa over embrace
54:04.5
na siya yung magiging speaker
54:05.5
of Shangri-La Dialogue
54:07.9
which is a very big
54:09.6
so I see all of these people
54:11.2
from all over the world
54:12.7
western countries
54:19.3
because if he feels
54:20.1
that everyone is so
54:23.9
a little bit more adventurous
54:24.8
and push the envelope
54:25.8
especially itong Chacha
54:26.8
medyo nag-awardy ako
54:31.9
people are bashing me
54:33.5
pinapabango ko si BBM
54:35.4
I was among the first person
54:36.4
to warn about this Chacha
54:37.5
last year pa lang
54:38.3
the first time I heard about it
54:39.7
I can see the logic of Chacha
54:41.7
that's how you avoid
54:46.1
lagay mo nang si Martin Romuales
54:48.6
solve na yung problem mo
54:49.8
but a lot of things
54:51.2
could also go wrong
54:54.9
probably you heard
54:56.3
yung discussion namin
54:58.8
ayoko itong PI na ito
55:01.0
yung People's Initiative
55:07.5
last time I checked
55:13.9
mukhang panik talaga
55:16.0
magiging irrelevant sila
55:18.8
maniari ng Congress
55:19.9
is they'll ram it through
55:24.6
ilan ba yung Congress
55:26.8
they're trying to make
55:28.3
the Senate irrelevant
55:29.6
kaya ako curious ako
55:31.2
si Rafi Tulfo dito
55:35.3
parang si Sal Seda
55:40.1
of this year yata
55:41.9
ipapapush na itong
55:43.9
referendum na ito
55:45.4
push it all the way
55:46.4
unless the Supreme Court
55:51.0
could still happen
55:52.3
which will negate
55:53.6
anong basa mo ngayon
55:58.0
Duterte appointees
56:00.3
two big institutions
56:05.1
at yung Supreme Court
56:10.3
ng incumbent president
56:11.8
ang Supreme Court
56:12.7
kahit appointee yan
56:13.8
ng previous president
56:15.2
kayang takutin yan eh
56:20.1
well yung extreme version nito
56:22.9
pero kayang takutin
56:24.7
the Supreme Court
56:25.4
can be disciplined
56:27.0
by a very very strong executive
56:29.5
is there a way forward here
56:31.2
I guess my question is
56:39.4
almost every president
56:41.1
with the exception
56:41.6
I think of Noy-Noy Aquino
56:42.9
who should have actually
56:43.8
been the one to try
56:46.7
in an interview with Rappler
56:48.0
he kinda said something
56:49.5
along those lines
56:50.2
pero he never acted upon it
56:51.5
at least per Ronaldo
56:54.5
sabi ni real big R
56:57.0
he was just thinking out loud
56:59.5
that in cabinet meetings
57:00.3
kasi I point blank
57:05.8
sinabi niya rin yung sa Rappler
57:07.4
actually si Pinoy lang talagang
57:10.2
in that direction
57:13.1
what makes them think
57:16.6
who think that this is possible
57:17.6
what makes them think
57:18.3
that they can succeed
57:19.2
where others have failed
57:29.3
discussion we had
57:29.9
ay hindi ka pala kasama
57:30.8
kasi wala yung internet mo
57:31.8
yung parang sinabi
57:34.3
if the father started
57:35.7
the NPA communist rebellion
57:37.4
baka the son will
57:40.3
not because of his brilliance
57:41.7
but because of timing
57:42.7
and then I thought
57:43.8
maybe the same argument
57:45.7
in constitutional change
57:48.7
are so excited about
57:50.2
BBM not turning out
57:51.9
and him going after
57:52.9
Duterte in some way
57:55.5
Supreme Court question
57:56.4
that's where the ICC comes in
57:57.7
I think if ICC comes in
58:01.9
and speaking of Supreme Court
58:03.9
there was a study
58:08.1
which showed that
58:09.6
do Supreme Court justices
58:13.0
that appointed them
58:15.1
is not an incumbent anymore
58:17.5
and then if ICC comes in
58:19.4
I think there'll be
58:21.7
liberal revolution
58:24.8
it's gonna energize
58:26.5
all the progressive
58:27.8
in the Philippines
58:28.5
it's gonna bring out
58:29.2
all of this discourse
58:30.0
about accountability
58:32.1
medyo maging mabango siya
58:34.6
kinda in the liberal camp
58:39.6
where the Supreme Court
58:43.2
where the ICC comes in
58:44.6
the one big factor
58:45.5
will be whether ICC
58:47.0
warrants of arrest
58:48.3
will be issued this year
58:49.2
if ever they were gonna be
58:50.2
Ronald was always
58:52.3
more optimistic than me
58:54.0
it's always splitting
58:55.3
so I'm interviewing
59:01.5
maraming nangyara
59:02.2
all around the world
59:02.8
so we'll also have
59:04.0
a special episode
59:05.7
so I'm not gonna pretend
59:06.8
that I have a final answer
59:13.8
they have an interest
59:14.7
in pushing with this
59:15.6
because it's a question
59:23.2
that if they wait
59:24.5
after the midterms
59:26.5
kung madelay na yan
59:28.4
no one cares about
59:30.3
everyone's gonna talk
59:31.3
about Tulfo and Sarah
59:33.0
as the next presidential
59:35.3
so as BBM himself
59:39.5
when he was a senator
59:40.3
if you're gonna do this
59:41.9
while you're still
59:43.2
in your early years
59:44.6
so maybe behind the scenes
59:46.4
there is an understanding
59:47.5
maybe BBM is saying
59:49.8
the way it's being done
59:59.4
and then you have a situation
60:01.3
Robin Hood Padilla
60:02.9
coming out against
60:04.8
like this is weird
60:06.4
the third are pro Chacha
60:10.1
and it's very interesting
60:12.7
anong opinion ni Tita Arroyo
60:14.4
the great Chacha advocate
60:27.0
magandang ganda siya ngayon
60:30.9
enrila yung mga yan
60:31.8
datanda yan ng maganda
60:33.8
going back to Tita
60:35.6
kumayaman ka today
60:37.5
there are many ways
60:38.2
to keep very very young
60:39.7
or unless you're Papa P
60:41.6
I mean my goodness
60:43.2
he's almost 50 rata
60:44.2
like he looks like
60:45.0
a 20 year old guy
60:46.2
he looks so fit and strong
60:49.5
no sugar daw siya
60:50.8
good luck doing that
60:52.8
do you do sugar bro
60:53.7
I mean I cannot write
60:54.8
and all kung walang
60:57.3
carbs maybe I can cut
61:00.9
good luck kung you wanna go
61:01.9
Papa P in our profession
61:02.9
but going back to this bro
61:06.7
some people invested
61:07.5
and wanna get this through
61:09.4
siguro hindi siya natuwa
61:12.9
Etsapuera thing happened
61:14.0
and sloppiness of that
61:15.6
but if they can do this
61:17.0
in a more sophisticated
61:17.8
fashion and stealthy fashion
61:25.7
international pressure
61:28.8
okay let's slow this down
61:30.0
or consider some other option
61:31.8
they have three options
61:33.0
constituent assembly
61:37.6
constitutional convention
61:41.5
the decision very soon
61:43.1
I think the clincher here
61:44.6
because if the ICC
61:46.4
in the next three months
61:57.3
and then that's exactly where
62:05.6
yung difficulty ko dito
62:09.0
pag-usapan ng chacha eh
62:10.2
actually I was just about to say
62:13.3
prime minister talaga tayo bro
62:15.2
kasi hindi naman talaga
62:17.8
a perfect constitution
62:19.9
and one of the nice things
62:21.0
about the unraveling
62:22.1
of the EDSA narrative
62:23.7
hindi na sinarapin
62:25.1
yung constitution na yan
62:26.5
except for a couple of people
62:29.7
dun sa constitution na yan
62:31.5
si Mr. Christian Monzod
62:32.9
who was one of the
62:33.7
drafters of the constitution
62:34.8
still thinks that
62:36.0
if we had just followed
62:38.7
then many of our problems
62:39.9
could have been averted
62:40.6
no I think there are
62:42.3
fundamental problems
62:43.8
in the constitution
62:45.8
what is your take
62:52.9
patay na si Claro Recto
62:54.3
pero hindi pa natin
62:55.1
nalilibing si Claro Recto
62:56.7
what do we mean by that
62:57.6
yung economically
62:59.3
na dinagtaya lang
63:03.6
so that the people
63:04.7
who are able to come in
63:05.9
with foreign business partners
63:09.7
you should really
63:14.2
ng advocate niyan
63:15.7
noong 2016 election
63:17.0
ang pinakamalaking
63:20.1
yung panahon na yun
63:22.6
kailangan talagang
63:24.3
and yung parliamentary system
63:25.8
parliamentary system
63:28.9
like the Philippines
63:32.2
because we really need to
63:35.1
na pag-isipan ng partido
63:39.4
there are many ways
63:41.4
party-based democracy
63:42.4
but one way to do that
63:43.5
is to creating a structure
63:46.1
encourages people
63:47.1
to think in terms of party
63:48.2
if you like a president
63:49.7
pwede pa rin naman
63:51.6
on top of the prime minister
63:53.3
kind of a ceremony
63:56.1
kung mailig talaga tayo
63:59.2
ng directly elected president
64:00.6
so pwede pa rin naman yun
64:04.6
kailangan naman talagang
64:10.2
our politicians enough
64:11.5
na pag sinabi nila
64:15.5
pagsususpect siya
64:16.5
na may ulterior motive
64:18.7
get to that point
64:21.2
okay let's go now
64:27.6
itong konstitusyon
64:34.8
are we gonna wait
64:42.3
seeing a prime minister
64:43.2
in the Philippines
64:45.2
has even a better chance
64:46.3
in the parliamentary system
64:49.5
nagiging prime minister
64:56.4
parliamentary system
64:58.3
there could be more choices
64:59.1
for people like you and I
65:00.2
who find the current system
65:09.1
the ceremonial president
65:12.2
sovereign immunity
65:13.2
because he's the president
65:14.7
if they do a cha-cha
65:16.1
and even if he just
65:17.2
becomes ceremonial president
65:19.0
that sovereign immunity
65:20.3
so he can still travel
65:24.5
almost ad infinitum
65:26.6
ceremonial president
65:29.9
and then yung prime minister
65:31.9
siguro si Martin Muna
65:34.5
ang laki ng incentive
65:37.7
on the cha-cha issue
65:38.7
it's a question of
65:40.7
under what circumstances
65:43.6
I hate to say this
65:49.5
tanggapin na dapat natin
65:51.5
magkakaroon talaga
65:53.6
it's just a question of
65:55.8
or what's the best
65:57.5
we can get out of it
65:59.1
the state of play
66:01.3
I hate saying that
66:03.9
but it is what it is
66:09.8
a lot of the dilawan eh
66:11.0
kung strategy lang ba
66:14.3
kung ako sina Martin
66:15.4
hindi ko babalatan
66:17.4
gagawin ko napaka
66:25.4
mararope in Thai dyan
66:27.5
baka may mga nakuha pa
66:29.5
medyo bobo yung movie
66:33.4
may mga dilawan daw
66:35.2
na nagsa-side with
66:41.2
director Vince Taniado
66:44.0
ba't si Pepe Joke
66:45.7
kaya ingat lang tayo
66:47.0
sa mga sinasabi natin
66:49.9
now going back to this
66:52.9
kaya nga gustong-gusto
66:55.0
you say the things
66:59.6
ay mukhang mapunta na tayo dyan eh
67:02.0
like it's just a matter of
67:03.3
how we're just gonna cross
67:07.1
bro I'm thinking about it
67:08.4
hindi mag-work talaga
67:09.5
the way Philippines is
67:10.6
ang labo na manalo
67:12.2
yung matinong presidente
67:14.5
yung matinong presidente
67:15.5
kung yung kongres
67:16.2
may purong mga ganyan tao
67:22.9
and you're absolutely right
67:24.1
constitution should be
67:25.3
a living document
67:26.2
that fits the purpose
67:27.9
and the moment is
67:30.0
I don't know kung minor to
67:32.0
as a women's rights advocate
67:33.4
there's one thing
67:34.7
in this constitution
67:35.6
that I absolutely hate
67:37.0
constitutional ban
67:38.5
and divorce maybe also
67:41.6
there's a constitutional ban
67:49.7
a theocratic document
67:54.4
there are many things
67:54.9
na matasin na nakakainis
67:59.1
just because you come from
68:01.0
Berkeley, California
68:02.4
to impose your values
68:06.0
will fix that problem
68:10.2
republican wet dream
68:11.8
yung constitution natin
68:14.2
may constitutional ban
68:21.0
I'm telling my friend
68:22.8
U.S. is interesting right
68:23.9
I think this is the
68:25.3
with the most number
68:30.3
na Catholic justices
68:31.7
that's unprecedented
68:33.8
U.S. Supreme Court
68:34.8
is feeling very Filipino
68:37.3
I mean their jurisprudence
68:39.8
it's just an amazing detail
68:41.0
that came to my mind
68:42.1
but going back to this
68:45.9
to move forward here
68:50.6
my ilustrado side
68:51.8
and I'll just be a
68:54.3
this is my suggestion
68:56.1
ingay and pressure
68:58.2
is about to happen
69:04.6
get the least bad
69:05.9
version out of this chacha
69:08.3
hope that we still
69:09.9
some good elements
69:11.8
five to ten years
69:12.9
we can get a decent
69:13.7
prime minister or two
69:15.3
some good political party
69:16.7
so this is a three step
69:25.0
you cannot fix the problem
69:29.1
yung ilustrado natin
69:33.7
ng ating politika
69:45.9
change the constitution
69:48.4
we can use against
69:49.3
him to pressure him
69:50.2
not to mumbo jumbo it
69:52.5
truth of the market
69:54.3
na may trauma pa rin
69:56.2
and I didn't live
69:58.4
I've studied it a lot
69:59.5
and I know how it works
70:01.8
kung paano talaga
70:02.8
binaboy yung legal system
70:07.8
constitutional change
70:15.2
maybe in his mind
70:17.0
have I not proven to you
70:18.3
that I'm not my father
70:20.1
pero yung gut reaction lang
70:22.5
yung gut lang talaga
70:24.0
if there's a Marcos
70:27.4
is proposing to change
70:29.7
that gives me goosebumps
70:32.8
a kind of gut reaction
70:36.4
the weapon of the opposition
70:40.3
international opinion
70:44.1
if I cannot trust
70:45.0
constitutional change
70:48.6
an ETSA constitution
70:51.9
Aquino constitution
70:53.5
like that whole rhetoric
70:54.5
that Maharlika-ish
70:59.8
investment fund episode
71:03.2
the Dilawan argument
71:04.0
I think it showed
71:05.0
some interesting things
71:06.8
it's not too hard
71:08.2
against the Marcoses
71:09.8
when they bring up
71:10.5
this nostalgic argument
71:12.6
it also shows that
71:13.4
Marcos will push through
71:16.1
that is close to his
71:19.3
it also shows that
71:22.2
evil as critics thought
71:23.7
look at the final version
71:27.1
first version proposed
71:28.3
it's so much better
71:29.9
that's a good argument
71:31.4
I think the Maharlika
71:34.4
of what could happen
71:35.8
in a cha-cha situation
71:37.1
that's a good parallel
71:38.3
I just thought about it
71:40.9
this could give us
71:42.2
that's a good point
71:43.3
thank you so much
71:44.2
napaisip ako bigla doon
71:45.4
I think this could be
71:52.2
si Gilbert Teodoro
71:54.5
failed assassination
71:56.6
kay Gilbert Teodoro
71:59.4
hindi nila aarestuin
72:01.4
si Risa Conteveros
72:04.1
ram something through
72:12.2
it's just a question
72:13.7
like in what direction
72:15.4
like it's gonna be
72:16.8
is it darker shades
72:17.9
or lighter shades
72:18.9
of course the Mark 20
72:20.7
history doesn't repeat
72:22.2
but what's less than rhyme
72:23.5
I think that's what's gonna happen
72:26.6
but it's just less than rhyme
72:28.3
but there's already
72:29.3
one thing I'm sure of
72:31.9
that by disposition
72:33.1
this Ferdinand Marcos
72:38.2
anybody who makes the argument
72:39.4
na ang disposition nito
72:40.3
at ang end goal nito
72:41.3
is similar to the father's
72:43.4
lo loko ka na lang tayo
72:45.4
love him or hate him
72:47.7
you have to hate him
72:49.1
for different reasons
72:52.1
and there are reasons
72:53.8
but you have to hate him
72:55.4
from different reasons
72:56.8
you hated the father
72:58.5
ibang-ibang tao ito
72:59.6
so kung if he rams
73:01.0
through a constitutional change
73:02.5
it is going to look
73:05.9
is that a good thing
73:09.3
that's a good analysis
73:10.2
that's a good analysis
73:11.2
I think if Imi Marcos
73:12.4
were the president right now
73:13.8
I would make a slightly
73:14.5
different argument
73:17.7
that was always my point
73:20.0
I mean people can attest
73:20.9
before elections I said
73:27.2
it's necessarily a good thing
73:30.0
literally my article
73:32.1
Marcos won for Nikkei Asia
73:33.4
was no cause for panic
73:35.7
it's going to be good
73:39.2
fight for whatever
73:40.5
is left of our democracy
73:41.7
in fact things could go
73:42.7
in the right direction
73:44.2
so far I've been proven right
73:45.6
so I think the next chapter
73:47.3
how do we approach
73:48.6
Chiswis by the way
73:50.1
is going very conflicted
73:52.7
pero very conflicted
73:54.0
yung relationship
73:54.7
ni BBM sa tatay niya
73:55.9
hindi yung kind of
73:57.2
unambiguous adoration
73:59.3
or parang more or less
74:00.2
open secret na yan
74:09.3
I'm working on a book
74:12.9
it's based on yung
74:13.5
Journal of Democracy
74:14.4
pieces and all others
74:16.6
I'm really most interested in
74:18.0
is the Hawaii days
74:24.4
a lot happened there
74:25.7
so I need to go to Hawaii
74:27.0
and meet my relatives
74:28.8
and get Chiswis and all
74:33.5
all of these differences
74:34.8
because let's not forget
74:36.0
as our good friend
74:37.3
Manuel Quezon III
74:38.4
said he was the last hawk
74:40.0
he was a very aggressive man
74:41.4
in the last hours
74:42.3
of his father's regime
74:43.3
so something really happened
74:44.7
during that exile
74:47.9
I can get something
74:49.6
but I want to research that
74:52.6
were really the decisive moments
74:54.4
there's something also
74:55.6
makes you a little bit
74:57.6
and soul searched
75:00.4
thank you so much
75:03.0
polvoronic discussions
75:04.4
thank you so much bro
75:05.8
I really appreciate this
75:08.4
thank you very much bro
75:15.0
thank you very much bro
75:22.0
and I hope to catch up
75:25.3
catch up with you soon
75:30.0
thank you very much guys
75:31.8
medyo napatagal tayo
75:32.5
medyo late na ito
75:33.7
i-upload ko rin yan
75:36.5
si Ayan nagtanong
75:38.8
yung kausap po natin
75:40.4
so that's 16 hours
75:44.1
kanina na nagsimula tayo
75:45.2
so pasensya na ko
75:45.9
medyo late tayo nagsimula
75:46.8
but that's the earliest
75:47.9
I could get out of him
75:48.9
and before he gets
75:51.5
thank you very much
75:52.4
I hope na-appreciate
75:53.4
yung discussion na ito
75:54.2
i-upload din natin
75:55.1
dun sa platforms natin
75:59.7
kasi parang feeling ko
76:00.6
hindi mo na-appreciate
76:01.7
and these are long conversations
76:03.0
up to 10 minutes lang
76:03.9
pwede ko i-upload
76:04.3
so yung mga ka-TikTokers
76:07.7
Richard Heidarian
76:09.7
and Richard Ferranda Heidarian
76:14.3
full versions na ito
76:15.4
I hope you appreciate it
76:18.2
itong discussion natin
76:26.9
it's also beautiful
76:27.7
and important in its own way
76:28.6
especially pag pinag-usapan natin
76:30.6
pinag-usapan natin
76:31.5
ang ating kasaysayan
76:33.7
ang kahalagan ito
76:35.9
contemporary politics
76:37.7
tough tough questions
76:38.9
tough tough questions
76:40.9
temporary answers
76:43.6
and talk to you soon
76:47.9
blessed Sabbath day
