01:17.5
Oh, wow. Ang galing na Enchong D.
01:19.9
Actually, si Enchong D yung pinakamagaling na actor for me doon.
01:23.8
Again, Cedric was fantastic. I'm just saying, given the role that he was playing, like, he brought to life yung nangyari kay Zamora. Kasi, kaya nga sabi ko, it speaks to me. Kasi, yun, nakakatapos ko lang mag-review at magbasa ng mga libro ni Patricia Vangelista, you know, about EJK, about the weaponization of the legal process. So, I think the Zamora
01:45.4
it just brings to home this fact na how
01:47.5
crazy our legal systems can be that
01:49.5
a person who just made a joke
01:51.5
about, you know, bala and barel
01:53.5
in the context of, you know, sugal
01:55.3
will be just dragging because of
01:57.4
affiliation. And let's be honest, that's
01:59.5
kind of like the nanlaban situation
02:01.6
with Atatatikong. But for me, that was
02:03.6
the other thing that was very pulsating
02:05.6
about the movie. Yung, yung, just the
02:09.6
judicial process that,
02:11.5
especially Zamora's case was really crazy.
02:13.8
It was really crazy.
02:15.4
But, bumalik na rin ulit tayo sa movie.
02:17.4
But, sige, I think that's a good way of starting this discussion
02:20.2
What do you want to talk about ba? Kasi ako,
02:23.4
I wanted to talk about 1872.
02:25.6
Ano ba talaga yung relevance nung year na yun?
02:27.8
Why are we so focused
02:29.5
on 1872? And actually,
02:31.9
a good way to think about, and I've been
02:33.6
pushing this, medyo, medyo
02:37.5
but to compare 1872 to 1972,
02:40.0
these are two years of
02:41.5
the worst repressions in Philippine history,
02:45.4
72 is the Hues de Cuchillo,
02:48.1
wherein the Spanish government
02:49.3
tried to end, practically end, the secularization
02:51.9
movement of the priests that were
02:53.6
considered the most radical at the time.
02:56.1
And then, of course, yung
02:57.2
liberal movement, of course. And then,
03:01.5
Marcos trying to crush
03:03.0
a kind of what he felt was a conspiracy
03:05.6
between the liberals and the communists.
03:09.8
that in both instances,
03:12.4
yung mga movements that
03:13.7
were organizing against the government,
03:15.4
were critical of the government, were driven
03:17.1
underground. In 1872, some of them
03:19.4
were also driven into exile. But same thing
03:21.4
sa 1972, driven into
03:23.5
exile. So, it's nice
03:25.5
to think about those two
03:27.2
years in conjunction
03:29.5
with each other. Yung 1872 is
03:31.3
interesting. Bakit ba ang
03:33.2
obsessed ng Spanish government with
03:35.2
priests, in particular, Creole
03:37.5
priests? The very simple
03:39.5
answer, and pinakita na ito sa gumbusa
03:42.8
Well, the precedence of Mexico,
03:46.2
The precedence of Mexico, diba?
03:49.0
In fact, yung mga revolusyonaryo
03:51.7
na pare sa Mexico, parang
03:54.9
kaysa sa mga revolusyonaryo sa Pilipinas.
03:57.4
These were people who were openly
03:58.9
flaunting Spanish laws, and were
04:00.7
people who were actively advocating
04:02.9
for armed revolution and armed
04:05.0
rebellion. That would happen much later
04:07.0
sa Pilipinas. You would have secular
04:09.1
clergy sa Pilipinas na supported
04:10.9
ng katipunan. And in fact, the reason
04:13.1
why many people supported the
04:15.1
katipunan, mga masa, ay dahil
04:17.3
yung mga Spanish parish pristinal
04:18.9
naniniwala sa katipunan. So, eventually,
04:21.3
naging ganun din yung proseso sa Pilipinas.
04:23.5
Pero nung time na to, what the Spanish government
04:25.3
was trying to do is, nakita nila yung nangyari
04:27.0
sa Mexico, ayaw nila maulit
04:29.4
sa Pilipinas. And when they saw Pelaez,
04:31.3
when they saw Burgos, ang nakita
04:33.5
nila doon, ay mga parang
04:35.3
na-remind sila na
04:37.1
naalala nila yung mga Mexican radicals.
04:39.5
So, they said they wanted to forestall
04:41.2
that movement. And it's very interesting, you know,
04:43.0
what happens after 1872, apparently,
04:46.0
as I was reading about this, stops
04:48.7
offering a Ph.D. for priests.
04:53.0
Because they have a Ph.D.
04:56.8
Yeah, in Canonic Law. Tinigil nila after
04:58.7
1872. Meaning, takot na talaga
05:00.7
na magkaroon ng isa pang Burgos.
05:02.8
And that's why, yung mga intellectuals mo, they're no longer
05:05.0
priests. They are now
05:06.7
people in exile. So, di ba,
05:09.1
tignan mo yung trajectory.
05:10.6
Yung mga radical mo, sina Burgos, sina Pelaez,
05:14.8
pare. Nung tinigil
05:16.9
yun, you couldn't become a homegrown
05:19.0
priest intellectual anymore.
05:20.9
The way you became a critical intellectual
05:22.7
or an ilustrado was, mostly
05:24.9
nag-abroad ka, para kang risal.
05:26.8
So, yun yung two movements.
05:28.8
So, connected. So, what are you saying?
05:30.7
Kasi, essentially, these secular
05:33.0
friars were like, well,
05:34.7
they were like judicial experts. They were kind of a lawyer,
05:40.9
galing nila dahil,
05:42.7
and this is what people forget,
05:44.8
galing ang U.S.T. nung panahon na yun,
05:46.5
mga kaibigan ko from U.S.T.
05:48.0
Top sila sa bar last year, ha? Number one ulit yung
05:51.5
Ang U.S.T. mo, ang
05:54.1
kananlo program mo sa U.S.T. nun,
05:56.4
ilalaban mo yan sa mga kananlo
05:58.4
program sa Madrid. So,
06:02.7
ito sina Burgos na faculty at saka teacher
06:04.7
ng U.S.T. Talagang may
06:06.3
K yan. Ang problema mo,
06:09.0
yung mga parahil na napadating sa Pilipinas,
06:10.8
mga latak. Bakit mga latak yung
06:12.8
mga parating na parahil sa Pilipinas?
06:14.8
Number one, nung binuksan mo yung
06:17.3
Suez Canal, ang dali nang pumunta sa
06:19.3
Pilipinas. So, hindi mo na kailangan
06:21.5
maging dedicated friar to get to the
06:23.3
Philippines. Pangalawa,
06:25.6
various moments in Spain where
06:29.4
magkakaroon ka ng liberal
06:31.3
government. Ngayon, kung liberal government ka at
06:33.3
kung conservative friar ka, gusto mong
06:35.2
takbukan yung liberal government na yun, pupunta
06:37.0
ang Pilipinas. Third reason,
06:39.1
yung mayama na ang Pilipinas nung panahon,
06:41.2
export wealth. So, kung priley ka,
06:44.8
naka sa Spain, ayaw mo yung liberal
06:46.5
government, gusto mong kumita dahil maraming
06:48.7
lupa yung order mo sa Pilipinas, pupunta
06:50.6
ng Pilipinas. So, what's happening during
06:52.4
this period? Yung native priests, people
06:54.6
like, and by native, I mean, Creoles,
06:56.7
Indios, Mestizos.
07:00.6
ng pagaling, patalino
07:03.0
ng patalino, yung
07:04.3
parahil na dinadala mo sa Pilipinas, pabobo
07:08.3
Pabobo ng pabobo.
07:12.8
yung parahil na pabobo
07:13.8
pabobo ng pabobo, humihingi ng
07:16.2
privileges. So, what
07:18.3
does it feel like to be a very smart
07:20.3
person being lorded over by idiots?
07:24.3
piss you off. It must really piss you off.
07:28.1
You have the same blood and features as you,
07:30.4
right? Because I found the
07:31.3
scene where, who's a
07:34.0
Borgo's, who is with De La Torre,
07:35.8
De La Torre, open-minded, liberal,
07:38.4
etc. But he kept on emphasizing lugar,
07:40.1
your place, know your place.
07:42.1
Even the most liberal,
07:43.8
Governor General, supposedly, allegedly,
07:46.4
was, at the end of the day, had this
07:48.3
strict notion of hierarchy, which a lot
07:50.3
of these friars were subscribing
07:52.5
to. But I have one question for you,
07:54.2
Lele, and I know we can talk more about this, but
07:56.0
one of the, I won't say controversial,
07:58.3
but one of the things that stood out for me in this,
08:00.3
I mean, obviously, Jesuits were behind this production
08:02.3
and I think we have to keep on emphasizing
08:06.2
of these folks to the fruition of this
08:08.3
movie, aside from Pepe Choc, not a fantastic team.
08:10.9
One of the argument was
08:12.1
Dubai Yung Sinabin, my friars,
08:13.8
tayong sisisiin nila sa lahat
08:16.0
ng nangyaring mali. When, in fact, ang idea
08:18.0
was, the rot in the apple
08:20.0
really is in the secular imperial
08:22.1
machinery. That Izquierdo,
08:24.3
in a way, was symbolic of
08:26.0
this violent lashes of a
08:28.1
dying beast, which is this pathetic empire
08:30.0
in the late 19th century, barely
08:32.0
holding on to Cuba, and now also
08:34.0
facing serious problems in the Philippines.
08:35.9
How do you see that thesis? Is it an
08:37.6
you know, do you see that thesis
08:39.9
as an apologia or kind of
08:49.5
Well, I think we should really step back din naman.
08:52.2
I mean, madaling santoyin si Pepe.
08:54.0
Pero si Pepe naman talaga, galit na galit
08:57.9
And sometimes, he was kind of
09:03.9
he thinks in many, like,
09:05.9
for example, sa morga,
09:07.5
sa annotation of morga, it makes it seem as if
09:09.8
many of the friars deleted
09:11.9
Philippine culture, which is
09:13.8
absolutely not true. In fact,
09:15.7
a lot of the friars, they were the ones who preserved the
09:17.6
dictionary. So, what we know about
09:19.8
you know, ancient Tagalog
09:21.7
silabari, for example, a lot of it comes out of
09:23.7
the friars. Kung walang friars,
09:25.5
wala tayong appreciation ng culture na yun.
09:27.9
In fact, as early as
09:29.8
the 16th century,
09:31.5
kararating pa lang ng mga misionary,
09:34.6
marami sa mga dumarating
09:39.3
were kind of caudillo style
09:43.7
in the Philippines, what they did in Mexico
09:45.8
meaning, you know, kill people
09:47.7
and make money out of the new
09:49.8
colony. Ang mga humaharang dun
09:51.9
were the priests and the friars.
09:54.5
So, for example, in the 16th century,
09:56.2
yung Synod of Manila,
09:57.7
which explicitly said na kung
09:59.3
abusive encomendero ka,
10:04.1
absolution from the church.
10:05.8
Napaka-clear nun sa records.
10:07.7
So, a lot of that history, in fact,
10:09.9
has been deleted by the radicalism
10:11.9
of Rizal. Rizal was,
10:13.7
kind of radical. And, as with
10:17.0
part of it tatanggapin mo, part of it
10:19.5
hindi mo tatanggapin. Dapat tanggapin mo na
10:21.4
during Rizal's time, abusive
10:23.7
naman talaga yung friars, lalo na in
10:25.8
states like, in places like Calamba.
10:28.3
But at the same time, hindi rin naman
10:30.0
totoo yung sinasabi ni Rizal na
10:31.4
ever since bulok na yung mga friars na yan.
10:40.1
especially, I have a student, for example,
10:41.7
who is working on the,
10:43.7
Dominican, on kind of
10:45.8
Dominican proto-liberal traditions
10:47.7
under the influence of a
10:49.5
theologian named Father Suarez, whose brother
10:51.8
was actually sent to the Philippines.
10:54.1
And, in many ways, yung kind of
10:55.8
ideas of proto-liberalism
10:58.0
that would be absorbed by the Philippine Revolution
10:59.9
were coming from these earlier
11:01.8
forms of thinking within the friar
11:03.7
orders. And, you need to recall
11:05.9
that the major critique of the
11:07.7
violence in Latin America had
11:09.7
come from the friars. Kaya,
11:11.9
nung dumating na sila sa Pilipinas,
11:13.7
ready na makipagbangayan yung mga
11:15.6
friars against the conquistadors, saying,
11:18.1
oops, you cannot bleed this
11:22.3
you cannot bleed it dry the way
11:23.7
you did Mexico. I don't know, with
11:25.4
Incas and Aztec and all of that.
11:27.4
Kaya nga hindi nangyari yung genocidal level
11:29.6
of violence that we saw with conquistadors
11:31.7
and all. Yes, yes. Merong, merong ano,
11:33.7
may violence and merong actually may
11:35.3
declining population, significant declining
11:37.4
population. So, it's not true that it was
11:39.5
a lot less sanguinary
11:41.4
than yung colonization of Latin America.
11:43.7
But definitely may diferensya. And
11:45.5
one of the differences is because of
11:47.5
this intellectual movement within
11:49.6
the friars towards a kind of humanism already.
11:52.1
And a kind of proto-liberalism, I would say.
11:54.3
Interesting. Pero siguro
11:55.6
meron din aspect of, di ba, hindi naman
11:57.5
monolithic yung friars,
12:00.0
di ba? May mga times na more dominant,
12:01.6
may mga times na more liberal, may mga times na
12:03.5
more reactionary. Depended din dun
12:05.6
sa politika nila back in
12:07.2
the, you know, the madras.
12:09.3
So, pag sobrang liberal yung
12:11.4
government, especially, I mean, you mentioned this dun sa,
12:13.7
isang libro mo na, isa sa mga favorite
12:15.4
kong libro sa Pilipinas, yung, you know,
12:17.3
Liberalism and Postcolony, about, you know,
12:19.4
how the 18th, the Cadiz Constitution,
12:21.5
right? Probably, in a way,
12:23.5
reinforced yung reactionary tendency
12:25.4
bang fires because it was a huge leap
12:27.4
for Spain to go from Spain of the
12:29.5
17th century to, my God, Napoleonic
12:31.5
Spain, di ba? Yes, yes, yes. And then,
12:33.5
of course, talaga nung, by the
12:35.4
time that Carles wars, nagkakaroon ka na
12:37.6
parang similar to the United States ngayon,
12:39.5
nagkakaroon ka na talaga ng polarization
12:41.0
in Spanish society.
12:43.7
And in many ways, the polarization
12:45.4
would climax in the Spanish Civil War
12:47.6
in the 20th century.
12:51.3
prily ka, you were kind of
12:53.6
wala ng choice. It was either you chose
12:55.7
the liberals slash republicans
12:57.4
or you chose the conservatives
12:59.4
who were claiming to protect the church.
13:03.5
unfortunately, by the 1930s,
13:05.7
even a enlightened university
13:08.0
like the University of Santo Tomas
13:11.7
General Franco into
13:13.5
their honorary rector, di ba?
13:15.6
So, yung ganong klaseng polarization
13:17.6
where talagang a lot of the
13:19.6
friars were funneled
13:21.5
into reaction and
13:23.4
fascism, actually. But that
13:25.5
wasn't always, what I'm saying is that that wasn't
13:29.4
Yun nga, hindi monolithic, which is what you tend to
13:31.5
get dun sa Rizal thesis
13:33.6
essentially na ito yung mga pinakaugat.
13:36.1
So, for you, hindi
13:37.5
masyadong controversial yung sinasabi
13:39.5
sa movie na, you know, the
13:41.4
friars were the scapegoats,
13:43.5
quote, for the inherent brutality
13:45.6
of the imperial regime, reactionary
13:47.6
imperial regime towards the end of the 19th century. In fact,
13:49.5
the part where the bishop of Manila
13:51.6
ba yan, na nag-intervene to make sure na
13:53.3
they still keep their...
13:57.4
historically correct?
13:58.9
Yeah, I think that is historically correct.
14:01.3
This drove me back to Schumacher.
14:03.7
A lot of us read Schumacher
14:05.6
again after the film.
14:06.8
So, you know, our bias is like, we'd rather
14:09.6
read like Benedict Anderson and Constantine...
14:13.5
Ben also never cited Jack Schumacher
14:16.0
because he was like, he styled himself
14:17.8
as a new left radical who would never
14:19.6
cite the kind of, you know,
14:22.5
more conservative
14:23.6
Athenians. Pero bumalik ako kay
14:25.7
Schumacher and mukhang
14:26.9
totoo yung part na yan.
14:29.4
Although, of course, di ba
14:31.6
may intervention dun? Alam naman, nakikisausaw
14:33.9
ako parate dun sa back and forth mo.
14:35.9
What's the name of that Filipino scholar in
14:37.6
Cambridge who did this fantastic
14:39.0
dissertation on the role of
14:41.3
Vatican during the... Ah, si Jethro.
14:43.5
Si Jethro's still working on his dissertation.
14:45.7
I went to be like, wow.
14:46.5
Magiging eksposib yung paglumupas.
14:48.7
Sobrang ganda nung dissertation niya.
14:51.2
I'm so impressed. I mean, obviously, I didn't read the whole thing, but
14:53.4
from what I gathered, it was like, wow,
14:57.0
Like, the Americans didn't start
14:59.5
with, you know, blank slate. They had to deal with the
15:01.3
Catholic majority country.
15:02.7
Oh, and actually,
15:05.5
sanang at one point,
15:08.6
mapunta ni Jethro
15:09.6
yung issue ng Lasal.
15:11.4
Kasi Lasal, di ba, lahat tayo,
15:13.5
pareho tayo may Lasal.
15:17.7
ways, was supposed to be the American
15:19.5
face of Catholicism sa Pilipinas
15:21.6
kasi yung American colonial government yung
15:23.5
nagsabi na pumasok yung Lasal brothers dito
15:25.5
because they wanted
15:27.3
the American Catholics to be able to compete
15:29.5
with these more deeply ingrained
15:31.9
Hispanicized Catholic schools like
15:35.5
Ateneo and USD. Very good
15:37.6
point. Very, very good point. I mean, I didn't, I had
15:39.6
no idea about it. I've spent quite some time in Lasal.
15:41.5
Ah, okay. So this was the American...
15:43.5
American Catholicism.
15:45.4
So, wow. So you have USD and then Ateneo
15:47.7
and then like, oh, wow, that's incredible.
15:49.5
I had no idea about it. Now, going
15:51.5
back to this, I mean,
15:53.7
where I disagree with both of you gentlemen,
15:55.5
or at least with the other gentlemen
15:57.7
is, in fairness, one of the reasons
15:59.7
why I got to appreciate Schumacher,
16:01.5
and in fact, the reason why I fervently
16:03.4
disagree with my fellow European on the question
16:05.5
of Lasal as a counter-revolutionary
16:08.2
is because Benedict
16:09.5
Anderson, dun sa isang New Left Review argument,
16:11.5
yung trilogy na ginawa niya about Lasal,
16:13.5
he mentioned that it was
16:15.5
the Schumacher letter to Rizal
16:17.5
that was decisive. Particularly in this letter
16:19.6
where he argued about, quote-unquote,
16:21.5
I mean, more or less, preconditions for
16:23.5
a successful revolution. Kasi kung
16:25.4
bara-bara ka mag-revolution, which is more or less
16:27.6
what happened under a certain agenda man,
16:29.6
you're just gonna get people killed in vain.
16:32.1
So if you want a successful revolution,
16:33.7
you wanna make sure there are at least four or five
16:35.4
conditions met, including, of course,
16:37.6
making sure my imperial overstretch, which
16:39.5
was coming about as the Cuban
16:41.3
independence war became crazy,
16:43.5
which Bonifacio knew more about.
16:45.3
So, essentially, parang
16:46.8
A, Rizal was not against revolution,
16:51.4
bara-bara mindless
16:53.1
violence revolt. And second,
16:56.1
and I think this is where Benedict Anderson's
16:57.7
intervention was helpful to me, I don't know if you agree with that,
16:59.8
his idea was that dahil nasa dapitan
17:01.5
si Rizal, at medyo
17:02.6
nasa labas siya ng, you know what I'm saying,
17:05.6
circulation of proper information,
17:07.4
siguro hindi siya sobrang updated
17:11.2
talagang vulnerable itong Spanish
17:13.5
and in a sense, mas well
17:15.6
informed si Bonifacio,
17:17.5
based here sa Tondo, Manila,
17:19.4
ang katalagayan ng Madre España and how vulnerable
17:21.6
they were at that moment. Except, he was not successful,
17:23.8
it was Aguinaldo who was successful
17:25.4
in pushing it to its logical limit.
17:27.3
I mean, what do you say about that?
17:30.1
Alam mo, lahat ng
17:31.2
revolusyonaryo, disimulado.
17:35.5
naamin lagi ang revolusyonaryo
17:37.9
ng full intent nila.
17:39.7
This is what we forget. Is it
17:41.5
possible, for example, that Burgos was
17:43.4
a separatist? Unlikely, but
17:45.3
possible. Kasi hindi mo naman
17:47.3
alam, kasi hindi ka naman naamin,
17:49.3
papatayin ka kung umamin ka eh.
17:51.5
Is it possible that
17:53.0
when Rizal said that he was
17:55.3
going to build a colony in Borneo, is it
17:57.2
possible that he was doing that in order to
17:59.3
build a revolutionary army?
18:01.0
Possible. Hindi ka naman naamin eh.
18:03.0
And if you look at, for example,
18:05.2
ang magandang example dito, yung 1972,
18:07.6
again, yung comparison.
18:09.2
Marami sa mga gusto mag-revolusyon naman yun.
18:11.1
Hindi naman papahuling buhay in public. Si Aquino,
18:13.4
nakikipag-meeting sa mga komunista,
18:15.5
ready mag-arm revolt.
18:16.9
Nagbibigay ng pera sa mga,
18:18.7
nagbibigay ng pera at ng baril sa CPP.
18:22.3
Publicly, amin ni ba
18:24.8
Aba, nung nahuli siya, in-accused siya na ginagawa
18:27.3
niya yun? Aba, deny ng deny.
18:29.5
Di ba? Kasi hindi ka naman papahuling
18:31.1
buhay. Lahat ng revolusyonaryo, hindi
18:33.0
magpapahuling buhay yan under
18:34.5
repressive circumstances.
18:37.1
So, when we ask the question,
18:39.5
was Rizal, was Burgos revolutionary,
18:41.2
we need to take into consideration,
18:43.4
the fact that a lot of it is shrouded
18:45.9
by mystery. And a lot
18:47.5
of it, we just can't,
18:49.2
we just can't answer.
18:50.7
I mean, it's a game of cloak and dagger also.
18:53.9
You're a revolutionary.
18:55.8
I mean, it's essentially Simon, right?
18:58.4
the other side of Rizal. I mean, if you read
19:01.0
El Filipo's Turismo, I think, pretty much, it's clear
19:03.4
that Rizal is for revolution, but for the
19:05.4
right conditions. Ayunin, you know,
19:07.3
ni Simon na just out of hatred,
19:09.5
just, you know, anarchist
19:10.8
style of, you know, revolt.
19:13.4
So, I, I, that's the, that's the reason.
19:15.0
Ito, going back, going back to Schumacher,
19:17.6
Schumacher says that he can kind of date it.
19:20.3
Eh, by the 1880s, Rizal was a convinced separatist.
19:25.3
In other words, he did not believe that the
19:26.8
Philippines had a future with Spain. Separatist
