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Ayan, ayan mga kameta. Ito na, ito na, ito na.

Pag-usapan natin, ituloy natin yung mga discussion natin kanina.

Napaka-ganda pa naman ang moonlight ngayon.

At alam mo naman, pag may moonlight, it kind of also signals some need for reflection, especially yung mga full moon na yan.

Now, speaking of reflections, obviously may mga iba dyan, may ibang grupo dyan na napapaisip na sila

dun sa ginawa nilang bara-bara na drug war ng panahon ni Digong.

Sabi nga ni Erap, bilog ang mundo, weather-weather lang yan.

Well, actually, hindi si Erap nagsabi bilog.

Si Erap nagsabi weather-weather lang yan, pero more or less yung bilog ang mundo yung sinasabi niya.

Variation of the thing.

No, I mean, the thing is this.

May mga iba dyan, nung nasa padero sila, nasa puesta sila, they thought na ano na sila, superhero na sila forever and they could do whatever they wanted.

Now.

So, katulad ng sinabi natin kanina, katulad ng sinabi natin kanina, taluan natin ito ah.

Katulad ng sinabi natin kanina, we are all totally for a war against crime, against drugs, against corruption.

Kaya na, sabi ko eh, yung isa pa rin hindi natin ginawa nung time na yan, kung galit na galit si Tatay Digong sa krimen,

bakit yung mga batas na laban sa corruption, yung mga batas laban sa, alam mo na, yung mga big time na mga katrapuan ay hindi nila ginawang,

mas strict, diba?

At yun nga yung tragedy eh.

When you raise the right questions in terms of, you know, we have to deal with corruption, we have to deal with crime,

pero yung solution mo is actually worse, diba?

In a sense that, parang lumala pa yung problema.

Because one of the worst legacies of yung war on drugs na bara-bara is that you undermine any attempt at creating a semblance of rule of law.

Because kung na-damage mo na yung mga institution ng isang bansa, na-damage mo na,

na-damage mo na yung mga institution ng isang bansa, na-damage mo na yung mga institution ng isang bansa, na-damage mo na yung mga institution ng isang bansa,

kung na-damage yung tiwala ng tao sa kapulisan, sa law enforcement,

kung na-damage yung tiwala ng mga investors na safe yung bansa mo,

ang laki ng cost na ito sa isang bansa.

Worse than that, ay itong allegations of tens of thousands of extrajudicial killings.

At ang masaklap dyan, alam natin, maraming sa mga biktima ng EJK,

ito yung mga voiceless, ito yung mga poorest of the poor Filipinas,

ito yung mga tao dun sa mga pinaka...

You know, either marginalized sectors ng society,

hindi ito yung mga tao na, to use the Habermasian term,

may communicative competence, no?

In order to make their story heard properly by the people, no?

Ito yung mga voiceless people.

So, that's why, that's why hindi siguro na-appreciate ng karamihan ng ating mga kababayan

yung depth ng humanitarian catastrophe and human rights apocalypse, no?

Na meron tayo nung panahon na yan.

Kasi parating mga kwento lang nang pinapakinggan ng ating mga kababayan.

Ay yung, either yung propaganda na isang banda, isang grupo na,

oh, ito na, magiging Mexico na tayo, narco-state na tayo, which is total nonsense,

because anyone who knows anything about real narco-states, Colombia, Mexico,

and tignan mo yung advice ng President ng Colombia to Duterte noong 2016 na minura-mura lang ni Digong.

Kung basayan nyo yung advice niya, kahit nagiging narco-state ka,

hindi ka dapat babara-bara yung solusyon mo.

Sistematik ka, because the medicine will kill the patient if the medicine is based on dumb diagnostics, right?

Alam ng lahat ng tao yan, diba?

If you don't have proper diagnostics, you're just gonna make the thing worse.

So first of all, make sure alam mo yung nangyari, and then siguraduin mo yung solusyon mo

will make the problem go away or at least mitigate the problem.

So that's why in public policy, parang sa medicine yan.

First, based on evidence and data, you identify what is the real problem,

and then, accordingly, you look at the range of possible solution,

and then you empirically assess kung etong solusyon na yan ay gumagana or hindi.

At yun yung fundamental problem natin doon sa war on drugs dati na it was not based on an evidence-based approach to public policy.

It was based on, for the lack of better term,

bara-bara political will.

Yung mga tatay, paranggay-style.

I mean, yung ginawa ni Digong baka gumana sa Davao, which is highly questionable because many people question the means that he used.

I always say,

you don't need to burn down the hen house to get the fried chicken.

Kung may mga manok yan,

gusto mong gumawa ng fried chicken, hindi mo kailangan sunugin yung buong ano nila para kumuha ng fried chicken.

Kunin mo lang yung manok na yan, and then surgically deal with it, and then lutuin mo sa oven.

You can still get the fried chicken without having to burn down the whole hen house.

So the means poisons the end kung bara-bara at dumb yung approach.

So, again, yan ang problema.

Mas iba eh.

Na parang sinasabi nila, pag critical ka doon sa drug war na yan, ay, ikaw eh, gusto mo sa mga drogista, gusto mo sa mga kriminal.

No, no, no.

Tactics matter.

Evidence-based approach matters.

21st century na po tayo.

Hindi tayo sa medieval time.

Pero ang problema natin is, sometimes gusto natin leader, yung parang leader ng isang 12th century medieval village.

Hindi pwede ganun yung approach natin.

We have to be very systematic.

We have to be very...

scientific in that approach.

Now, having said all of that, kanina mo, interview tayo sa Monocle Magazine sa London.

I-repost ko yan naman ngayon.

Kung saan, tinanongin sa atin yung situation sa Philippines pagdating sa ICC.

Kasi, fina-follow ito ng mga ibang bansa eh.

Nakikita nila talaga na things are moving.

So, ang ina-explain ko na pagdating kay BBM,

pagdating kay BBM, obviously, ugas kamay siya.

Kasi, you know, ayon yung mga banggan, yung kabilang grupo, diba?

So, sasabihin niya, we're not gonna lift a finger.

But at the same time, they also did not lift a finger to stop yung investigations na nangyari

and almost concluded by the International Criminal Court.

So, confirmado na ngayon. Alam na ng lahat.

It's not even an open secret.

It's a confirmed fact na the ICC was able to gather all the evidence and data,

to talk to the witnesses.

And I'm sure, katulad ng sinabi natin, yung usapan natin ni Sir Ronald Llamas,

yung mga investigators na yan, hindi naman sila bara-bara na pupunta dyan.

Kung alam nila, wala silang protection.

So, there should have been a certain degree of protection from the law enforcement agencies

and the relevant agencies sa mga investigators na yan.

Kasi, syempre, sensitive yung ginagawa nila, diba?

At maraming mga involved dyan na may interest na hindi matutuloy itong ISIS na yan.

Because, of course, ang daming, including people from the law enforcement,

a lot of them were involved in the drug war operations, diba?

So, that means, ewan ko doon sa sinasabing na not lifting a finger.

But obviously, may level of protection and safety and reassurance yung mga ICC investigators na yan.

So, that tells you na itong panic mode ng isa dyan, diba?

And sa tingin ko, because siya yung pinakamadrama, kaya kitang kita natin,

Diyos ko, I mean, iniisip ko ngayon,

pag umabot ito sa ICC, yung Juarez-Cuarantufarez, kung umabot ito sa korte,

Ako, ma-imagine mo yung mga drama na gagawin ng iba.

Ayan, kawawa naman daw yung ganito, ganyan-ganyan.

Well, speaking of kawawa, saan yung iniisip nila yung mga kawawang pamilya na biktima ng EJK?

Alam natin, based on the reports, more than 100 children were victims of the EJK.

Not because they were directly, necessarily,

Well, yung kay Keon de los Santos, yes, and a number of other cases,

They directly, kinota lang sila, diba? Alam naman natin yung katotohanan dyan, eh. Buking na buking na eh.

Pero yung iba, nadamay lang kasi yung drug suspect, or kunyaring drug suspect, yung tata, yung nanay,

Yung binaral-baral nila lahat, yun, nadamay yung mga bata.

More than 100 children were killed, and this is the data from 2019 and all.

Sana yung mga yun ang tinanong nila, diba? Yung mga pamilya na apektado.

Alam din natin na, potentially, hindi lang few thousand,

but tens of thousands, because yung PNP mismo, umamin sila, dun sa datos nila few years ago,

na there were, what, 20,000? More than 20,000 deaths under investigations, DUIs.

So, kaya para sa akin, napaka walang kwenta yung argument na mas safe ang Philippines.

Mas safe for who? Paano naging mas safe ang isang bansa kung meron kang 20,000 unexplained deaths?

Homicides, murders, or EJKs, according to some, right? Yun yung problema. Anong?

Anong klaseng pulvoronik na pag-iisip yan na sabihin mo mas safe ka ay wala na mga snatcher.

Kasi, okay lang, pinatay lahat ng mga snatcher.

Like, paano naging mas safe ang isang community sa isang modern era?

Hindi naman tayo siguro medieval or prehistoric, diba? Hindi naman ito year zero, diba?

Or year 1,200. 21st century ito, you don't solve problems by just, you know,

eliminating half of the population. Yung ganyang pag-iisip, doesn't belong to the 21st century.

So, it's... I think...

I'll be honest, one of the hardest questions I had dun sa interview natin kanina sa Monocle Magazine,

I'll try to pause, it was...

Yung mga communities na apektado dito sa EJK, will they come out? Will they speak out?

And will people listen to them? At sabi ko nga, these are the voiceless people.

99.9% tong mga na-victima. Kung binasa niyo yung book ni Patricia Vinalista,

kung tinignan niyo yung mga reports ng different groups, kung tinignan niyo yung mga interviews,

yung mga interviews sa mga tao na alam nila yung nangyayari.

99.9% ng mga tao ay mga itong mga poors of the poor Filipinos na walang political voice, right?

I just sincerely hope there will be more documentaries, more efforts.

I mean, si Pepe Jocno, some of his earliest works, yung Encuentro ba yan, among others,

had to do something about yung EJKs and drug war. I think even yung Davao na cover niya in some of his earlier works eh.

We need, you know, yung parang gumborza style kind of documentaries, talagang highlighted,

where talagang kinakausap mo yung mga biktima, yung mga bata, and you give them voice.

So that yung mga iba na walang puso, yung mga iba na, eh yun ang isa pang problema sa kultura natin eh.

Ang taas ng simpatsya natin sa mga trapo at sa mga mayayaman oligarchs, ganun, pag sila biglang nahihirapan eh,

magdadrama-drama sila, mag-antik-santik sila.

Ang dapat simpatsya natin sa mga trapo at sa mga mayayaman oligarchs, ganun, pag sila biglang nahihirapan eh, magdadrama-drama sila, mag-antik-santik sila.

Ang dapat simpatsya natin ay dun sa mga pinaka mahirap, yung mga pinaka, voiceless, yung mga pinaka nabiktima.

Dapat dun yung simpati natin. Ang problema natin...

O yung iba pang, simpati pang nga nila sa China, eh sa Pilipinas, ayan, which tells you something is going on here.

Eh kawawa naman ng China, huwag natin i-provoke. Parang ganun din yung pag-iisip, diba.

Ang simpatsya mo dun sa mga inakuza na, or hindi lang akuza, diba,

na involved sa mga massive blunderous policies

that cost lives of thousands of thousands,

people. Guys, maawa-awa kayo doon.

Dapat maawa kayo doon sa mga

biktima. Yung mga voiceless people lang walang power.

Kamusta mo? Ayan, makameta.

And tuloy.

This is a very grim topic, guys.

And for me nga, kaya nga, may moral crisis

talaga tayo. May moral crisis tayo.

Kasi, tinignan mo talaga kung

tunay kang kristyano, kung nakita mo

yung mensahe ni Jesucristo,

or kahit anong religion ka,

I mean, any Abrahamic religion

or even non-Abrahamic religion,

compassion is fundamental to that.

The golden rule. You don't want others to do to you

what you, you know, don't do to others what you don't

want others to do to you. Di ba yun yung golden rule?

Unless, of course,

medyo crazy kaya sa dumasok

is kaya pangusapan niyan. But, going back to this,

it's a moral crisis.

And we have to come to terms with that.

And one way of coming to terms with that is not to wait

for people to come to terms. You have to

talagang confront people with the facts,

with the horrible facts

na libo-libo sa ating mga kababayan

na pinakamangihirap ay pinatayo

under the most questionable circumstances.

Di ba yung ginawa ka sa Gumburza?

Yun ang hindi ko na, ano, masyado na

emphasize dun sa isang video natin.

Yung kitang-kita niya sa Gumburza, di ba?

Yung parang ginawa sa kanila, yung parang nanlaban, eh.

Pina-plant lang sila, di ba?

Yung reaction ni Zamora,

the ridiculousness of the charges,

and eventually was executed on those ridiculous charges.

Parang ganun yung nangyari sa nanlaban, eh.

Parang yung ginawa kay Padre Zamora, di ba?

How they gamed the system,

how they came up with mumbo-jumbo cases,

the impunity of,

the ridiculous impunity of it,

the injustice of it,

the inanity of it, di ba?

So, ako,

there has to be a reckoning with that.

There has to be a reckoning with that.

And there has to be a moral reckoning.

Siyempre, marami naman sa atin,

hindi naman police, hindi naman gobyerno,

hindi naman directly involved,

pero morally,

tingin ba sa atin,

ay mukhang nag-i-enjoy dun sa

nangyaring kababalakan na yan, di ba?

So, those people have to be confronted with the facts.

Ako naman, niniwala ako,

talaga, unfortunately,

they're always gonna be kulto-kulto.

There's always gonna be fanatics.

But they're gonna be a small minority

or at most a small plurality.

But the vast majority of people,

they have to be guided in the right direction.

They have to be reminded of their Christian values,

their fundamental human values.

Hindi lang ito,

human rights na politika, eh.

Ito yung human,

ito yung humanity, eh.

Yung humanity natin.

So,

for me,

kung nakita mo yung isang nagpapanig dyan,

nagpapaawa effect and all of that,

that means,

maybe,

tama yung sinasabi ni Trillanes.

Tama yung sinasabi ni Trillanes na talaga,

in the books na,

in the pipelines na itong

ICC Warrant of Arrest.

So, I think this is the difference

we have with si,

kasi si Atty. Carranza,

I see where his skepticism comes from

and he raised some very valid questions

na hindi na-raise ng iba.

I completely also agree na

you shouldn't raise people's expectations unnecessarily.

But I don't think you would see this kind of

drama and all

and,

you know,

school of drama,

ganyan.

Kung,

kung wala talaga nangyari.

I think something is going on there.

And obviously,

kung ikaw ay si Marcos Jr.,

diba?

Anong sabi ni Harry,

ex-human rights lawyer,

sabi niya,

mag-uugas ka may yan.

Baka yun nga yung nangyari,

diba?

So,

that's why I'm saying,

as much as PBM doesn't want confrontation,

is conflict avoidant,

some sort of clash is gonna happen

if talagang ICC will go forward.

And as I said,

ICC,

hindi yan marabarang mag-isip.

If they're gonna move ahead,

with warrants of a restaurant

and like that,

they're gonna make sure,

first,

na may certain degree of compliance

na makukuha nila

sa government of the Philippines.

And it's very possible

that the ICC will not move forward

unless there's also pressure

from other Western allies and partners

on the president, right?

To do the right thing.

Alright?

To do the right thing

and move in the right direction.

Anong ganyan natatakot?

Suspicious na rin ako.

And sensitive kasi yung topic.

But,

you gotta understand, mga kameta.

So,

in a way,

baka,

eto na yung recording

na inintayin natin.

But,

tama naman si Caranza,

attorney Caranza,

na warrant of arrest

will just be the first step.

And the warrant of arrest

is not justice per se.

It's just a procedural step

towards justice.

So,

what we're hoping to see is

coming to terms,

moral terms,

bakit ang dami sa atin

ay tahimik

and worse,

marami sa atin

ay sumuporta pa

dun sa carnage

yung nangyari

ng mga taon na yan.

So, there has to be

a moral reckoning there.

And as far as justice is concerned,

there has to be also restitution.

Not only in terms of compensation

dun sa mga biktima,

taking care of yung mga victims,

yung mga bata especially,

but also in terms of

rebuilding yung mga institutions

na na-damage dito.

Especially yung mga kapulisan,

yung mga ibang ahensya

na involved dito.

There has to be really

a reconstruction

or restitution of that.

Now,

obviously,

the list is very long

and since yung ating

kasaluku na presidenta

ay not necessarily

isang Swedish social democrat

or progressive Bernie Sanders

type of leader,

we have to temper our expectations

in terms of the damage control

and restitution

and the justice aspect

is concerned.

But,

at least we're seeing

some movement.

And parati ko sinisabi,

we should not be just

naka-tenga lang

or naka-tunga nga.

We have to be part of

the conversation and process.

So ako,

I always use my little voice here

because we're just being

interviewed all around the world.

You know,

to encourage

the movement in the right direction

by the current president,

by the current administration.

And when it comes to politikos,

sabi nga ni Bernie Sanders,

you have to keep your legs

or foot close to the fire

because that's when

they're going to do the right thing.

They're not going to do the right thing

on their own terms

because,

siyempre,

makakalkulate din mo nga yan.

Ayon natin banggayan ngayon ito.

Ayon natin banggayan ganyan.

So,

there has to be

pressure from the people.

There has to be pressure.

There has to be mobilization.

There has to be ingay.

Talaga yan.

Design way na yung ingay.

Kailangan natin yan para ma

ma-etsapuera yung

hindi etsapuera

pero etsapuera yung

PI,

yung People's Initiative niya.

So,

those are the things I'm looking at.

So, yun.

I mean,

it's quite telling, no?

For yung isang

quote-unquote senator

to go on this

dramatics move, no?

And,

my goodness,

expect nyo pag

if ever lang,

of course, it's not assured

kung makulong yan mga yan

sa Hague

or ma-arrest yan.

Ako, magdadrama yung mga yan

ng big time.

So,

dapat handa na kayo

mag, ano yung response

once magdadrama-drama

yung mga yan, no?

Yung iba dyan,

biglang mag-wheelchair na.

Yung iba dyan,

biglang may

neck brace niya.

Yung iba dyan,

biglang,

alam nyo na,

alam nyo na yung kalakaran,

diba?

Yun ang problema

sa ating bansa, eh.

Marati tayong naawa

dun sa mga

nasa poder

at kahit

nahuli na silang

uling-uli na sila

tapos,

ay, matanda na,

kawawa naman,

ay, kasi,

pero dapat

ang maawa tayo

sa ating bayan,

at maawa tayo

sa ating mga institusyon,

sa democracy,

at maawa tayo,

most of all,

dun sa mga biktima

ng abuso

ng mga nasa poder.

Alright?

On that note,

thank you very much,

mga kameta.

God bless,

and talk to you soon.