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00:00.0
Sorry, ubus lawa yung nangyari
00:02.4
sa mga previous episodes.
00:04.4
It's very cold here.
00:06.0
Kung may heater kasi.
00:12.0
So we discussed ICJ.
00:13.9
We discussed ICC.
00:16.1
I think there's already
00:17.3
a Karanza oove, right?
00:19.0
Which is curb your enthusiasm.
00:21.4
I think you're like that guy.
00:24.1
Curb your enthusiasm.
00:25.8
So having said that,
00:29.4
a little bit Marcos,
00:31.4
the Marcos Jr. era.
00:33.4
Some would say, again, curb your
00:35.3
enthusiasm, right? Some people, I think, getting ahead of
00:37.4
themselves. Some people are misinterpreting
00:39.3
some of the things I've written, including recent
00:41.0
Pisco Sojourner of Democracy.
00:43.7
Having said that,
00:45.3
can we start with the issue of
00:46.7
corruption? Because
00:52.2
dun sa Pork Barrel,
00:54.0
Napoles and Jingoy.
00:55.6
I immediately had a problem with the journalism
00:58.9
Like, every headline was acquitted.
01:01.1
It's like, yeah, acquitted of like the higher
01:02.9
crime, but there was still
01:04.2
conviction on the bribery cases. In fact,
01:06.9
two kinds of briberies in the case.
01:08.6
But for some reason, it got lost in just the
01:10.8
headlines. So, dun pa lang nalang ako na
01:12.8
may problema tayo sa journalism pa lang.
01:16.9
tignan, diba? Kaya for some people, siguro
01:18.5
nagtaka sila, what did JV
01:20.5
to mean when dapat respetuhin
01:22.7
natin yung... Because I think JV was
01:24.6
referring to the conviction part rather than
01:26.7
the acquittal part. But,
01:28.9
first of all, let's talk about this. Kasi for me to say
01:30.8
something more about
01:31.9
our justice system in the Philippines. So, kanina,
01:35.4
medyo inanom mo yung
01:36.8
ICJ and ICC. Let's talk about
01:38.9
our own beloved justice system.
01:41.0
How do you read this situation?
01:44.8
You know, one of the last times
01:46.9
I had an extended
01:48.9
visit in the Philippines was just
01:50.9
before the 2016 elections.
01:54.9
interesting because Marcos Jr. was running for
01:58.9
This was before he lost
02:00.5
as vice presidential
02:02.8
candidate. And, I joined a
02:04.7
press conference called by Akbayan Youth.
02:09.0
of the Akbayan Party. Because
02:10.7
they had just filed a case
02:12.8
at the office of the Ombudsman
02:16.3
plunder and the other
02:18.6
Nepalese-related cases.
02:23.3
specifically against Marcos
02:28.9
Marcos Jr. together with the other
02:31.2
persons you mentioned.
02:32.7
Estrada, Emilia, the other
02:34.9
persons accused of making money
02:37.1
corruptly from that Nepalese connection.
02:39.8
That case is still
02:41.2
pending. That case has been
02:43.0
pending for so long
02:47.2
including journalists have forgotten
02:49.1
that Marcos Jr. was
02:50.8
implicated in that case.
02:53.1
And, that says a lot about
02:58.9
just need to focus
03:00.9
on the all or nothing
03:03.8
type of coverage, right? Acquitted
03:06.6
or not acquitted, guilty or not
03:10.2
whose case does not move forward at all.
03:14.9
And, why certain politicians
03:16.5
and their cases move forward
03:18.2
at certain points in time, but not
03:20.5
at other points in time. And, it
03:22.8
says a lot about the court system,
03:25.2
about the judicial system
03:26.7
in the Philippines that
03:30.9
justices or ombudsmen
03:32.9
or prosecutors in the Philippines wait
03:34.9
for the turnover of presidents
03:36.8
before they act or
03:40.8
cases get resolved or not get resolved.
03:42.9
It's counted not in terms of
03:45.0
what the Philippine
03:47.0
Constitution mandates is the period of
03:48.8
time within which you need to resolve cases,
03:51.1
but it's counted in presidential
03:52.8
terms. When Gloria Arroyo
03:54.8
becomes president, we expect this case to
03:56.8
move forward or not move forward when
03:58.9
Marcos Jr. becomes president, we
04:00.5
think the Duterte cases will move forward
04:02.8
or not move forward. And,
04:05.2
not just a reflection
04:08.8
of the institutional weakness
04:10.7
of the Philippines judiciary,
04:12.8
but it is also reflective
04:16.0
civil society and
04:20.8
people who have the power
04:22.6
and the capacity to do something
04:24.9
about it have just simply come to
04:28.9
expect political transitions
04:32.7
in the movement of
04:34.7
significant corruption cases
04:37.4
or significant cases involving
04:38.9
political families and dynasties
04:41.1
rather than the courts themselves.
04:43.9
So, just to round
04:48.9
when these individual politicians
04:55.4
as a surprise. The Filipinos
04:57.6
sort of see that as a surprise.
04:58.9
They see that as the exception
04:59.7
rather than the rule.
05:01.4
When they're acquitted,
05:03.8
Filipinos simply accept that
05:11.3
important is not simply
05:13.5
to rely on the same
05:15.6
institution, the office of the Ombudsman
05:17.5
or the Philippine Supreme Court
05:18.9
to define what justice looks like.
05:23.7
for instance, that
05:24.4
we succeeded in the PCGG
05:27.5
in at least going
05:28.7
after the ill-gotten wealth
05:31.6
is because we took off the blinders
05:34.3
and said, look, the Supreme Court
05:36.2
of the Philippines, the Ombudsman of the Philippines,
05:38.7
these are not judicial institutions
05:40.7
merely. These are political
05:44.1
And you have to throw everything
05:46.0
that you can throw at both
05:47.8
the persons you're going after
05:49.4
and the individuals in these institutions
05:52.1
that they rely on
05:53.6
to protect them, to give them impunity.
05:58.7
there's the key threshold there.
06:00.6
If you're afraid of doing that,
06:02.2
if you're afraid of doing that because you have your own ambition,
06:05.0
because you have your own family
06:06.4
or business interests to protect,
06:09.8
don't become a human rights lawyer,
06:12.5
don't become an anti-corruption lawyer,
06:14.6
don't practice law in the Philippines.
06:19.7
I'm still trying to squeeze out
06:21.1
something more hopeful out of our discussions.
06:24.1
I want to end on this note.
06:26.1
is there anything,
06:32.3
how should I put it?
06:35.7
Of course, I understand
06:36.9
that we still have a lot of reservations
06:39.1
about the direction of things,
06:40.5
but don't you think nevertheless
06:42.5
the toning down of the Duterte era
06:44.6
excesses, whether it's on the West Philippine Sea issue,
06:47.1
whether it's on the U.M.,
06:47.8
don't you think that provides some sort of a room
06:50.2
for the real good forces
06:52.6
to push for some transformative
06:54.9
change down the road?
06:56.2
where the heck is the opposition?
06:58.7
I'd rather ask, right?
07:00.3
This is the question we keep on asking ourselves
07:01.7
because we keep on talking about Duterte,
07:03.6
Marcos, China, U.S.,
07:04.9
and I wonder, okay,
07:05.8
so where are the real progressive forces
07:10.3
Don't you think now there's a historic opportunity
07:12.1
for them instead of,
07:13.7
I don't know, complacency or cynicism?
07:15.6
That's always my two concerns,
07:16.7
either complacency or cynicism,
07:18.2
the two evils of politics
07:19.6
that we have to avoid.
07:21.9
Well, I think, first of all,
07:23.3
it's important to,
07:25.4
and it might sound cynical,
07:26.9
but to me, it's not.
07:29.3
that Duterte set a very low bar
07:32.0
in terms of the behavior
07:33.4
of Filipino presidents and politicians.
07:38.1
killing thousands of people
07:39.5
and claiming they were drug addicts
07:41.7
is a very low bar.
07:43.1
It's just murder.
07:45.0
It's not even any kind,
07:47.6
you don't have to be a political genius
07:51.9
to know that killing people
07:54.5
and then telling Filipinos,
07:56.4
lying to them and saying,
07:57.8
they deserve to be,
07:60.0
you generate popularity
08:02.3
because Filipinos are tired of crime,
08:04.9
are tired of corruption,
08:06.1
are tired of not seeing changes
08:09.3
in their country, right?
08:10.9
And so, he just decided
08:12.7
that's what he will do
08:13.7
because it worked in his city,
08:15.1
it will work in the country
08:16.1
and this is where
08:17.6
the liberal opposition comes in
08:20.0
because, you know,
08:21.7
this taste for murder,
08:24.0
if that's the only thing
08:27.2
you oppose Duterte,
08:28.6
because you don't want killings.
08:31.8
if you don't stop
08:32.7
and ask yourself,
08:33.7
why did killing become very popular?
08:37.0
Why did Filipinos,
08:39.7
the same type of poor people
08:41.2
and middle class people
08:42.1
who were being killed,
08:44.7
They were practically being killed
08:46.6
and yet cheering on
08:47.9
the killing of their neighbors,
08:49.2
of their friends,
08:51.4
their own family members.
08:53.5
That's because the liberal opposition,
08:55.4
maybe not all of them,
08:56.3
maybe not a lot of them,
08:58.6
don't see the class aspects of this.
09:03.4
They see this as simply a moral issue
09:06.5
rather than a social and economic issue.
09:09.2
That for as long as there's a lot of inequality,
09:11.7
for as long as people don't get to access justice,
09:14.6
you get convicted for,
09:16.8
if you're a local treasurer's office
09:19.3
or employee who stole 20,000,
09:22.0
you get convicted of barbarization,
09:23.9
get sentenced to 12 years in jail,
09:25.5
but Marcos Jr. becomes president of the Philippines,
09:28.6
despite not paying taxes
09:30.3
and despite his mother stealing billions.
09:33.0
where is the justice there?
09:34.5
if somebody comes,
09:36.0
emerges and says,
09:37.0
let's just kill people,
09:40.3
what should the liberal opposition do?
09:43.6
not just oppose the immorality of killing,
09:46.3
but challenge the inequality of that society.
09:50.2
But the second point here,
09:53.1
and I know you were heading towards,
09:55.6
the possibility of Marcos Jr.
09:58.6
president than Duterte,
09:59.6
which is why I started with saying,
10:01.1
Duterte is at a very low bar.
10:04.1
let me paraphrase.
10:09.0
someone like you would say,
10:11.4
maybe Marcos Jr. is better
10:12.7
because he's not Duterte,
10:13.9
but it's a low bar,
10:15.9
not everyone wants to be a murderer.
10:19.0
not all people who become president
10:21.3
aspire to be murderers
10:23.2
when they become president.
10:24.6
But there's another reason why,
10:27.7
this might sound,
10:28.5
but the reason Marcos Jr.
10:30.9
is not as terrible as Duterte
10:33.6
is that his mediocrity,
10:37.0
his mediocrity prevents him
10:39.3
from coming up with a fantastically
10:41.1
awesome scheme of corruption
10:44.3
like the Maharlika Investment Fund.
10:46.8
there were other people around him
10:49.8
this is a good idea.
10:50.8
This is how you institutionalize corruption
10:52.4
and maybe even launder
10:54.0
your family's ill-gotten wealth.
10:58.5
you don't have the kind
10:59.8
to come up with that
11:01.5
and that's the danger.
11:03.6
That's the danger.
11:04.9
There will be other people
11:08.5
these large schemes
11:11.2
to take advantage
11:17.5
and maybe even need
11:18.8
to put your cousin
11:22.6
won't go after us
11:24.9
what about the hypothesis?
11:26.4
I'm hearing this a lot
11:30.4
are very concerned
11:31.4
about good governance
11:33.0
in the Philippines
11:35.6
is this nowadays.
11:36.8
When I say China,
11:37.7
it's not just Beijing
11:38.4
to be the bigger China.
11:40.3
Their argument is
11:45.9
Biden doesn't control
11:48.0
but the Treasury Department
11:56.7
Where do you stand
11:57.7
on that hypothesis?
12:00.9
a group of people
12:02.8
and I supported them
12:06.0
at the State Department
12:07.7
and U.S. Treasury
12:08.9
seek the possibility
12:11.5
of a Magnitsky investigation
12:20.2
I already told them
12:23.0
unless the U.S. government
12:27.1
action will be taken
12:29.4
that the U.S. depends on
12:33.2
and strategic interests
12:39.2
rivalry with China,
12:43.1
economic and military,
12:44.8
want to encircle China,
12:58.5
you have all these countries
13:01.5
it's a different topic
13:02.4
whether this kind of
13:04.6
Cold War encircling
13:06.0
really ever works
13:07.0
because it obviously
13:09.2
China became one of the most
13:10.5
prosperous countries
13:36.2
true in their own way,
13:38.2
Because the Philippines,
13:40.1
the military included,
13:43.0
individual loyalty
13:52.4
we can expose you
13:53.2
for this or that,
13:54.1
there are two things
13:56.2
The Marcus family,
13:57.1
really has investments
13:59.3
Some of their ill-gotten wealth
14:00.5
was being laundered
14:01.7
through Shanghai.
14:03.0
So, there is that.
14:06.7
the United States
14:07.7
has an institutional
14:12.3
operates independent
14:13.9
U.S. geopolitical
14:17.5
which means it's possible
14:20.6
necessarily enjoy
14:22.3
the kind of immunity
14:29.2
to whatever assets
14:32.0
in the United States?
14:33.2
Because right now,
14:35.5
their ill-gotten assets
14:36.7
away from the U.S.
14:38.1
precisely because
14:38.9
of this uncontrollable
14:40.6
factor that they can't
14:42.1
institutional responses
14:43.6
from money laundering
14:48.0
After Marcus leaves
14:50.1
he wants to preserve
14:52.0
Whether he can do that
14:57.6
I wanted to end on that
14:58.6
but I just remember
14:59.5
I have to bring this issue
15:02.7
one of the things
15:03.9
is how this cha-cha
15:04.8
could be after all
15:06.1
the insidious threat
15:08.1
to whatever is left
15:14.1
even Duterte people,
15:17.2
Hardcore DDS people
15:19.8
openly coming out
15:21.2
against this charter change
15:22.6
because obviously
15:27.4
behind charter change
15:32.0
for a parliamentary system,
15:35.4
the ceremonial president,
15:37.5
and be the head of state
15:38.4
technically speaking
15:39.2
for the foreseeable future
15:40.9
and someone like Martin
15:43.7
he's comfortable with
15:44.6
could be the prime minister
15:45.5
because you don't need
15:46.9
actually to be prime minister
15:47.9
at least compared
15:48.4
to the presidential race.
15:50.0
You just need to be
15:50.7
the representative
15:51.3
of the biggest party
15:52.5
work it from within,
15:57.0
the cha-cha question
16:00.8
Marcus Jr.'s father
16:04.3
just because he wanted
16:06.8
with some legal excuse
16:10.0
these constitutional
16:10.7
changes seriously
16:14.5
reassuring himself
16:15.7
that he was trying
16:16.8
to do the legal thing
16:17.8
and to the extent
16:22.6
that we have to have
16:25.4
our stay in power,
16:32.2
that there are people
16:32.9
around Marcus Jr.
16:37.8
between dictatorship
16:39.6
in a dictatorship
16:43.7
you can get away with it
16:45.1
because you're president
16:48.0
keep you in power
16:49.9
keep your family in power.
16:52.6
another very specific thing
16:54.0
that is in the constitution
16:56.3
may be interesting.
16:57.0
to the Marcus family
17:02.0
and has a provision
17:04.5
there is no deadline
17:06.7
ill-gotten wealth.
17:08.2
Any ill-gotten wealth
17:09.9
to the next generation
17:12.8
when a new president
17:14.7
when a new government
17:15.4
comes in and says,
17:17.2
you still have pending cases
17:18.4
or you still have
17:20.2
this 2003 judgment
17:22.2
everything you own
17:30.9
If I were president,
17:32.4
I'll remember that.
17:33.7
I'll go after your son.
17:35.0
I'll go after your grandson.
17:36.3
I'll go after your
17:36.8
great-grandchildren
17:40.3
ill-gotten wealth
17:41.6
Philippine Constitution
17:43.3
and maybe they want to
17:47.1
that's their main
18:04.5
if there were an opening
18:07.3
to keep themselves
18:09.4
it doesn't have to be
18:10.5
a change in the Constitution.
18:12.0
It can be an amendment.
18:14.1
it doesn't even have to be
18:15.2
any kind of change
18:16.3
in the Constitution.
18:19.0
this is a country
18:27.4
completely unconstitutional
18:30.1
and let it happen.
18:34.8
that pretend to be
18:36.1
legally questionable
18:37.7
are really exercises
18:40.4
political acceptability.
18:49.8
your own Constitution
18:51.9
to stay in power?
18:54.2
people go to court
18:57.3
constitutional it is,
19:02.0
this is the country
19:04.7
being killed in six years.
19:08.6
with the Constitution
19:09.4
compared to that?
19:13.9
On that very positive note,
19:18.3
a complete separate time.
19:25.5
a real talk on this.
19:28.1
you have to avoid
19:30.3
and cynicism, right?
19:34.3
believe that it's important
19:36.5
to get a wake-up call.
19:40.9
history bends towards justice
19:44.4
in that teleology.
19:45.5
I think you have to
19:47.0
You have to bend it
19:48.0
towards that direction.
19:49.3
You have to organize
19:50.1
and mobilize towards it
19:51.3
but you're not going to do that
19:52.4
unless you appreciate
19:56.4
going to really move
19:57.2
in the right direction.
19:58.6
I really appreciate
19:59.7
this dose of sobriety
20:02.7
in the previous episodes
20:04.5
and this episode.
20:08.3
one more positive note.
20:09.5
Compared to last time,
20:11.8
the Lima is at least free,
20:13.8
I think the situation
20:17.3
in West Philippines
20:17.9
are also looking good
20:19.1
based on my knowledge,
20:26.0
a little bit too,
20:30.4
to take zero to two
20:31.5
and then work out
20:33.7
from two to seven,
20:35.4
We're not going to get
20:36.9
but I want to work it that way
20:38.5
because my fear is
20:39.5
if we focus too much
20:41.2
then no one feels
20:43.3
to push for reform
20:47.4
You have to fight for it
20:48.8
and it's a generation
20:50.8
kind of challenge.
20:52.1
has fought for it.
20:53.9
has semi-fought for it
20:56.8
my students' generation,
20:58.3
they're even more
20:58.8
politically active
21:00.4
they also realize
21:01.4
how much is at stake
21:05.7
it's a generation
21:08.2
why they're so emotional
21:09.8
but at the same time
21:10.7
they're also very creative.
21:11.9
They use social media
21:13.6
all of other generations
21:14.8
including us millennials.
21:16.7
thank you so much
21:19.0
I hope that set you
21:20.1
for a very positively
21:26.0
Thank you very much
21:26.9
I don't want to say
21:27.8
because I want like
21:33.2
wherever you are,
21:36.9
the Filipino spirit
21:38.2
will keep you warm
21:39.1
for the first year.
21:40.1
Thank you very much
21:42.7
that this is long.
21:45.9
Always a pleasure.
