A special Ronald & Richard episode.

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This is it.

Okay.

Sir Ronald Llamas,

ito na, alam ko,

you're a very good person.

I know you're very, ano,

speaking of good person,

speaking of makabayan.

Tumasyan, tumasyan, tumasyan.

Oo nga pala,

you're a UST person, di ba?

Sorry, UP lang kami,

mga ano lang,

alam mo na.

Agnostic.

Ayan,

works, works.

Kaya kami,

ako, taga Baguio ako,

alam mo,

probinsyano,

raised with, you know,

all the Catholic values,

and all of that.

At pagdating sa UP,

culture shock talaga ako, eh.

Culture shock.

Hindi, atin na yun na lang ako,

sabi ko, culture shock.

No, speaking of this,

the Catholic Church hierarchy

in the Philippines

made a very, very important intervention

in behalf of the West Philippine Sea.

Did you see this coming?

What is your understanding of this?

Because I'm sure you know more than me

about the Catholic hierarchy thinking

and the logic behind what they're doing.

Of course,

ako personally, as an outsider,

I'm not surprised because I saw the Pope.

Pope Francis making very interesting

progressive interventions

on many issues.

Climate change,

wars in the Middle East,

Gaza.

Now, of course,

on the same-sex issues,

ayan, that's a little bit controversial

for a lot of folks.

But now, you have the Catholic Church

in the Philippines

also making this very important intervention

on the issue of West Philippine Sea.

What do you think about this?

Last October,

last November,

last December,

ngayong January and February,

kung dadaan ka sa EDSA,

may makikita kang huge billboards,

electronic billboards,

with two bishops

na nakasign ng West Philippine Sea.

Nakaganyan sila

sa yung pinakamalaking

electronic billboard

sa GA Tower, yata yun.

Kaya,

makikita mo na,

oh, for the first time,

mga bishops na sa billboard

advocating for support

to our frontliners

sa West Philippine Sea.

Tapos, nangyari yung

Christmas Convoy,

first civilian convoy

going into Ayungin.

At, kitang-kita mo sa media,

si Father Robert

and another priest

nagmi-misa

doon sa boat

nung hinaras sila

ng People's Liberation Army Navy.

Dalawang battleships,

dalawang coast guard,

at napilitan silang bumalik.

Pero nung umiikot sila,

nasa gitna sila ng misa.

So,

a Christmas Convoy,

which was very religious,

supported by a lot of bishops,

ay bumiyahe

papuntang BRP Sierra Madre.

At,

nung two weekends ago,

nagkaroon ng

CBCP Assembly,

Catholic Bishops Conference.

Tingin ko, isa sila pag-usapan dyan

ay yung mga frontliners.

Kaya, the day after,

naglabas yung walong bishops

ng led by the Bishops.

Naglabas yung walong bishops

ng led by Archbishop Sock Villegas,

Bishop Pabilio from Palawan,

naglabas sila ng statement.

Dalawa yung mahalagas na statement na yan.

Una,

dapat trabaho ng gobyerno

na suportahan yung ating mga frontliners,

especially yung mga fishermen

sa West Philippine Sea.

Pero yung ikalawa ay very intriguing.

It is morally necessary

na humingi ng tulong

sa ating mga frontliners.

Mga friends.

Aliado.

Alliances.

Mga aliado.

Na hindi lang siya

dapat.

It is morally permissible

na humingi ng tulong.

Pagamat,

inemphasize naman nila

na not for war.

Pero,

humingi ng tulong

para protectahan yung atin.

Kaya,

very pregnant with meaning

yung statement na yan.

At kung makikita ko

yung direction yan,

hindi yan dyan matitigil.

Ang alam ko nga,

may ilang mga objektoon,

obispo,

gustong gumawa ng pastoral letter

to be read

sa mga churches nila.

Kaya,

this is a

new moment

ng scaling up

sa West Philippine issue

dito sa ating simbahan.

At alam ko,

ditong parating na Easter,

makakaroon naman

ang Easter convoy

from Christmas convoy.

So, hindi ito lang tatapos

sa itong convoy na ito.

Itong mga activities na ito,

from civil society,

from the church,

may bagong dynamic

na nake-create

na tingin ko

ay hindi

na magpapatuloy.

Hindi lamang this year,

kung hindi even beyond.

Kaya sa akin,

mahalaga yung statement na yan.

Not only because

ito yung una

na talagang

naglabas ng statement

yung simbahan,

kung hindi

yung iniiwasan ng iba

o debate pa mismo

within the progressive movement,

within the left,

na morally permissible

na humingi ng tulong

sa mga kaibigang bansa

na tutulungan tayong

depensahan

ang ating West Philippine Sea

kung hindi natin kaya.

No?

Kung nabasa mo yung letter.

Ronald,

let me

say something

because

you were part of the

Aquino administration.

You were his political advisor.

And alam mo naman,

sa RH Bill issue,

di ba?

Medyo mahidwaan talaga

with the Catholic Church.

And I remember there were days na

Risa Hondiveros

sa

Risa Hondiveros

was singled out

by some of the folks

in the Church

because of her advocacy

for RH Bill.

And this was

from the position of the Church,

this was something immoral.

This was something

abhorrent, right?

Unacceptable.

And well,

eventually,

nanalong estado

sa mga issue na yan.

And what we also see

over the past decade or so

is the rise of

evangelist groups

for the lack of better term.

You know,

all of these

different religious groups

na may

block voting

or at least

daw may block voting.

Power and all.

Is the Catholic Church

still powerful?

Or you could say

it may not be as powerful

as before

but it's going through

a transition process

accepting the new realities

and new era

as we see with Pope Francis

and adjusting accordingly.

I know for a fact

that there were a lot of people

sa ating simbahan

who had

really profound moments

of reflections

after 2022 elections.

Because I think

the Church

more or less was aligned

against both Digong

and Tresor and Diglao.

I would say BBM also

and yet, you know,

you saw the people voting

in certain directions.

So I think

that also encouraged

some sort of soul-searching

just as Pope Francis

there in Vatican

was also overseeing

some transformational

paradigmatic discussions

or shifts

or paradigm shifts

chance of Vatican.

Again,

I'm saying this

as an outsider

who's not familiar

with the internal

aspects of the catechistic debates

and discussions

within the Church.

I know you may not be necessarily

the most biased person

but you were a politician.

You were a political advisor

during Pinoy.

You come from UST,

one of the oldest

Catholic universities on Earth

and the oldest in Asia.

What is your take

on that part?

Is this a kind of a

moment of transformation

and potentially

could make Catholic Church

very influential

again like before

as Cardinal Sin was perhaps

in determining

the fate of the

Philippine Republic?

We're a big R.

We have a big influence

in the Church

and the Catholic boss.

Interesting.

Definitely,

for now,

there's no Catholic vote

but there's an influence.

You saw that

during the time of Cory,

during the time of EDSA,

during the anti-Marcos struggle

and you also saw that

for example,

the first signature.

They revived the old signature

but the old signature of FBR

supported by Cory

was supported by Cory

and Cardinal Sin.

So it means

the Church has an influence.

The Church has an influence.

The Church has an influence.

Especially here

on the important issues

of the country.

It's different to talk about

the Catholic vote

because the Church

wasn't organized that way

and I haven't seen

any effort to do that.

There are a few

political electoral discussions

on the lay people

of the Church

but I haven't seen

any move

to consolidate

the Church

to have a Catholic vote

and I haven't seen

that in the future.

But the influence

is another thing.

For example,

here in the EDSA celebration,

it looks like they're sticking

the anti-Chacha message

together with the Church.

Here in the EDSA celebration

on February 22-23.

But it's not that big

because they're just starting

to scale up.

So here in the extrajudicial killings,

the Church has a very strong influence.

So even the Philippine Church

together with the Vatican

seems to have

a very strong transition.

I'm not sure

where it's going to go.

For example,

their recognition

of the LGBTQI

that you didn't think about

in the past.

It's happening.

It's happening now.

There's a dynamic

even within the Vatican.

And I'm almost sure

even within the Church

here.

Although sometimes

it's more conservative.

The Philippine Church

is more conservative

than the Vatican.

Yes, of course.

Especially if you have

someone like Pope Francis

who comes from that

liberation theology

almost perhaps world.

But somehow,

even by increments,

the influence of the Vatican

can also reach here.

Especially if you have

one preferenti

or perhaps even two

for the first time,

there are two Filipinos

that are lined up

as preferenti

or possible two.

Right.

Perhaps not only

the first,

the first Filipino Pope,

but also the first Asian.

Yeah.

Because Cardinal Tagle

is in the top three of hierarchy.

Right?

Even Cardinal Sin

didn't reach that high.

Right?

So,

and

if we're talking about

modernity,

Cardinal Tagle

is a modern

Yes.

A modern

charismatic.

Yeah.

It's not conservative

in the old mode.

Right?

You might even call him

progressive.

No?

And it kind of,

you know,

he had to weather

the Duterte attacks.

You know,

he was in the Philippines

during a very difficult time.

So,

hindi ito yung tao

na madali lang umakyat.

This is a person

who had to really overcome a lot.

So, I'm sure that,

you know,

Like Bishop Ambo,

the president of the CBCP ngayon.

Tinireten yan,

nitigong,

diba?

Yan yung kalookan eh.

Diyan lang ngyari

yung marami sa

extrajudicial killings.

Kaya tumindig yan.

At tinireten yan.

Niread pa yung kanyang

yung kanyang bahay

sa kalookan.

Diba?

Yung kanyang diocese.

Yung

head ng political affairs

nitigong.

Pumunta ron

para kunin yung mga testigo

sa pagpatay

kay Kian de los Santos.

At kinasuhan pa si

Sen. Teresa

ng kidnapping

dahil kinuha niya

yung mga kaibigan ni Kian

na nag-testigo

doon sa pagpatay.

Diba?

So,

hindi yan mga

medyo la-define yan

through struggle.

Hindi ito

mga nagmimisa lamang

na mga pare

na mga obispo.

Ito yung talagang

tinireten

ng isa sa pinaka

dangerous

president

sa ating kasaysayan.

Perhaps more dangerous

than the old Marcos.

Dahil parang mas maraming

allegedly pinapatay.

Pero,

they survived.

At hindi sila umatras.

Kaya,

ibig sabihin,

itong nangyayari ngayon

na positioning nila

sa West Philippine Sea

ay

is not quite

a leap

doon sa kanilang

political advocacy

at sa kanilang

political narrative

noong panahon ni Tigong.

It's a logical next step

in a sense.

Yeah, we're seeing

the logical progression

of what has been

in the works for Quads.

I like this question

kasi lumalabas dito na

hindi ka Marxista.

Ayoko nakausap

sa mga Marxista.

Parang masyado naman

kayo anti-religious

and all of that.

Eh, parang kulto din naman

kayo mag-isip minsan.

Yung una kong training

about Marxism,

two weeks

ay nagturo sa

akin mga

Jesuit priests

led by Father

Romeo Intengan.

Yan yung head

ng mga Jesuits.

At alam mo naman

yung liberation theology

kind of thing, right?

This is a very

doon ako lang simula.

When I was young.

Pueblo sa Latin America,

liberation theology.

Pero yung mga

yung mga

nagtrain sa akin

na mga Jesuita

na hindi mo

sasabihin

na mga bobo.

Matatalino yan.

Very short.

Pero nga ako

kilalang Marxist

na ang kanyang

doctorate, Marxism.

Kilala akong

Jesuit priest.

Na yung pinag-aralan

niya talaga maigit.

Doon sa seminar na yun,

doon sa

doon sa

Menobaliches,

nakalimutan ko na yung

pangalan ng lugar,

ay

for two weeks

tinrain kami.

Yung fundamentals

ng Marxism.

Dialectical

and historical

materialism.

The three basic laws.

The three basic laws

of dialectical

and historical

materialism.

The struggle of opposites.

The change from

quantitative to

qualitative.

And the

negation of the negation.

Pinag-aralan mo talagang

Tapos, yung last two days,

durugin mo yung pinag-aralan mo.

So, that's how

New synthesis.

Yes, yes.

Bago mo kontrahin ang Marxism,

dapat kaya mong depensahan.

Kaya mong ipaliwanan.

Then later on, destroy it.

The philosophy.

That's how we were trained before.

We transcended.

Yes.

Kaya hindi ko nakakalimutan yun.

Itong dialectical

and historical

materialism.

Baka di mo sinabi yan

nung yung pinaka-first

interview natin.

Remember?

I asked about your background.

Ano mo yan?

Ngayon,

lumalabas na yung side mo yan.

He didn't say that.

So, dapat i-cut out

ito,

i-dagdag ko doon sa

pinaka-first

long conversation natin.

Naalala mo,

when we talk about

yung pumunta ka sa

Smoky Mountain,

yung process of radicalization mo,

etc.

So, this is the part

I didn't know about it.

In fairness,

even with si Leloy,

I know he's not,

to put it mildly,

a kind of a

full-fledged

pious man.

But in fairness,

when we talk about

the progressive contribution

of the Church,

especially under the

current leadership,

he's very fair naman.

And I appreciate also this.

Kasi hindi ako komportable

sa mga tao na anti-religious

and everything like that.

You know?

And then,

sabay sila,

may sarili silang mga

kulto-kulto na,

you know?

I mean,

so, anyway,

I really appreciate this,

Secretary Ronald Llamas.

We have to have more

discussions like this.

Because,

I think we have to have

more faith and strength,

you know?

As we navigate

these very difficult times

in our country

and also.

Yung dati mo sinasabi,

balikan natin

yung ating mga bayani.

Yes.

Maraming salamat.

Sige.

Thank you.

Thank you very much,

Sir Ronald.

My pleasure.

Talk to you soon.

Talk to you soon.

Galvez, pasensya na.

Alam ko napahaba ka today

kaya madal-dal ako

para hindi ka mapagod

kasi alam ko

ang taga-tagal ng dal-dal

nyo kanina eh.

Pero,

mas pangungin.

And,

I'm glad

that marami pa rin

nanonood sa atin.

You know,

more than a thousand people

live have been watching us

on different platforms.

So, medyo malaki-laki din

yung views natin.

It's,

well,

exactly 11pm.

So,

on that note,

thank you very much,

Secretary Ronald Llamas.

And,

hope to catch you soon.

Welcome back

to the Philippines,

no?

Welcome back

to the salt mines,

no?

Thank you.

Thank you.