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00:00.9
Alright, everyone! Welcome back to the latest episode of R&R!
00:07.2
Mukhang one week tayo hindi nagkatcha pa. First time ever, ha?
00:10.6
Big R and the small R.
00:12.9
Oo, medyo naging longing lovers na tayo.
00:16.7
Mukhang ganun-ganun si Ronald sa full moon nung isang gabi, di ba?
00:20.2
Habang naglalakas sa full moon, inisip ano kayang ginagawa ni Ronald Tiamas.
00:24.8
Sino naman kayang in-intervene siya?
00:30.0
Hindi ako, good boy ako.
00:31.8
Good boy ka, parang yung algorithm ko sa YouTube, lumalabas lahat ng mga interviews mo.
00:36.2
Sabi ko, ababa, ababa, ababa, busy, busy talaga siya.
00:38.7
Hindi na tayo naalala.
00:40.7
Hindi na lang nagparamdam.
00:42.5
Ito si Sir Ronald Tiamas.
00:45.1
Inisip ko, you're somewhere there in the Arctic.
00:49.1
Maraming nakakatakot ng mga winters ngayon.
00:51.2
Ang init, lang cherry blossom na agad.
00:54.0
February pa lang doon sa Washington, D.C.
00:56.7
Things are looking crazy.
00:58.1
But before we talk about climate change,
00:59.6
and mga existential issues,
01:01.6
pag-usapan natin itong mga,
01:03.6
well, in a way, existential issues rin sa atin mga Pilipino.
01:06.4
How was your ETSA celebration day?
01:10.5
Compared to last year,
01:13.1
ang daming activities ngayon.
01:17.8
Starting Thursday hanggang Sunday.
01:21.6
Ang daming mga activities sa ETSA, Ryan.
01:24.4
Yung climax niya was the concert
01:27.5
sa People Power Mall.
01:29.6
Ito yung monument last Sunday night.
01:32.0
Sinintay nila yung 9.06 p.m.
01:35.4
Umalis si McCoy papuntang Hawaii.
01:38.1
So doon nagtapos.
01:39.6
Wait lang, ako nga pala na may timing na gano'n.
01:42.0
Sorry, I mean, di ako nga recently.
01:44.2
Okay, thank you for that.
01:46.0
Tapos nung umaga na Sunday,
01:48.6
merong bike rally.
01:50.7
Nandun si ex-senatore niya sa Gisag,
01:53.6
sa wheelchair niya.
01:55.1
Dahil hindi na siya makalakad.
01:56.2
Tapos mga 200-300 bikers.
02:01.6
Ako, nanonood lang ako.
02:03.8
Hindi na ako nagbabike.
02:05.3
Tapos nung hapon,
02:06.7
nagkaroon ng mass ulit
02:09.6
si CBCP President Bishop Ambo David.
02:14.2
Tapos nung gabi naman,
02:16.2
Tapos nationwide siya.
02:18.7
Nakita ako sa Isabela,
02:29.6
meron sa Zamboanga.
02:32.7
unlike last year.
02:35.6
mukhang naprovoke sila
02:40.4
nadagdagan Dabao bigla
02:41.8
yung may sinasabi mo dyan.
02:47.8
Mukhang naprovoke sila
02:49.5
nung tinanggal yung ETSA
02:57.0
Yung message kasi
03:01.9
Pero ang mahalaga,
03:05.3
All out yung simbahan.
03:09.9
Conference of the Philippines.
03:12.3
no less than the president
03:17.8
maraming activities,
03:18.8
nationwide yung activities
03:20.6
all out yung simbahan.
03:25.0
medyo sumabay yung
03:29.6
without the prayer.
03:32.5
Rally without the people.
03:37.7
kanilang message.
03:38.6
Nag-aakon sila ngayon
03:47.0
wala daw mistakes
03:49.4
he's supporting him.
03:50.8
After nung dabaw rally
03:52.4
binato niya lahat.
03:55.4
Binato niya lahat.
03:56.7
Kahit yung inidoro,
03:57.6
binato niya kay BBM.
04:02.0
ang bait-bait niya.
04:04.5
how can you trust this guys?
04:11.2
mga survivors mga yan.
04:12.6
Tignan mo si Enrile,
04:14.3
Kaya sabi ko sa iyo,
04:15.3
etong bardagulan nila,
04:17.3
mahapang usapan to.
04:19.0
they're gonna drag this.
04:21.4
Netflix series to.
04:23.1
drama nila ngayon.
04:26.6
hindi naman gano'ng kabobo
04:29.8
i-take ito at face value.
04:35.2
It's a slow burn strategy.
04:37.0
Silang pareho to.
04:40.1
talang Chinese style ba yun?
04:41.4
A death by a thousand cuts?
04:43.5
natin kagawin nila
04:47.0
before tayo pupunta eto sa,
04:50.3
let's call it for what it is,
04:51.4
Duterte appropriation
04:53.6
for their own agenda
04:55.7
and their own drama.
04:57.5
Pag-usapan natin etong
05:02.3
you know ETSA better than me.
05:04.2
I was born after ETSA.
05:06.8
And you have attended
05:07.8
more events related to ETSA
05:12.8
to Marcos Jr. era?
05:14.4
Is the ETSA spirit stronger?
05:18.1
how do you compare it?
05:19.4
What is your basis?
05:20.4
Anong sense mo dito?
05:22.3
especially with Gen Z,
05:25.6
sa Pulse Asia survey
05:29.5
I think March 2022.
05:33.1
the ETSA spirit going
05:35.1
for the new generation?
05:36.6
I think millennials
05:37.3
medyo okay pa kami.
05:40.6
how do we keep it relevant
05:42.2
this is a serious topic,
05:44.0
historical memory.
05:45.5
on the way to the Philippines,
05:46.6
I watched this movie.
05:48.1
everyone watch it.
05:51.1
This is the trial
05:52.8
involving extrajudicial killings
05:54.9
and the desaparecidos.
06:00.3
ng desaparecidos,
06:02.5
yung extrajudicial killings.
06:05.2
It's an Argentina movie.
06:06.2
Last year lang lumabas,
06:11.6
Pagdalo mo sa akin yung title.
06:13.1
Oo, napayak ako dun.
06:14.4
Ang ganda niya talaga
06:15.1
yung grabe ng movie niya.
06:16.9
of the prosecutor.
06:19.4
Kasi no one wants to do it eh.
06:22.0
after the admirals
06:24.6
kawawang prosecutor
06:26.9
kaya wala siyang choice.
06:33.0
So what he did was,
06:34.0
kasi takot lahat eh.
06:36.4
Eh diba, remember,
06:37.1
the military gave out
06:38.1
a power but they were
06:40.1
So what happened is
06:40.8
he had to hire kids.
06:42.5
As in literally kids
06:43.5
fresh from college
06:46.6
walang anything to lose.
06:48.4
And what they did is
06:49.2
they went all around
06:50.8
kasi ang argument nila
06:53.6
command responsibility.
06:55.4
command responsibility
06:57.4
there's a systematic
06:58.3
violation of human rights.
07:00.3
So they had to go
07:12.2
or collateral damage.
07:13.9
systematic violation.
07:15.9
beautiful quote there,
07:18.6
political ideology.
07:20.9
This was not about
07:22.2
saving the nation.
07:23.8
yung mga drug warga.
07:24.8
So ang dami niyang
07:27.0
Philippine martial law
07:30.2
and you could see
07:30.8
dun sa movie na yan,
07:32.1
but yung mga medyo
07:32.8
pasista na mga middle class,
07:34.8
some of them were
07:35.5
shocked into conscience
07:36.6
nung nantelevise yung story
07:38.4
and then nagpalakoy.
07:39.8
I really suggest guys
07:40.6
to at least check the trailer.
07:42.7
moved by that movie
07:46.6
kamusta naman sa Pilipinas
07:48.8
the spirit of ETSA?
07:52.4
But give us the story.
07:53.6
Is there something
07:54.0
we're missing here?
07:54.8
Is the spirit gonna come back?
07:56.1
Or what are the ways
07:57.9
to keep the spirit stronger?
08:00.1
it's beginning to.
08:01.7
sabi ko nga kanina,
08:02.8
for the first time,
08:04.4
nationwide yung mga activities.
08:09.0
nung last election,
08:11.1
yung mga rally ng Pink.
08:17.3
Nung six years kasi
08:25.7
All over the place.
08:27.2
Nung panahon ni BBM,
08:28.3
nung first year niya,
08:35.1
The spirit of ETSA.
08:37.2
nagpadala siya ng bulaklak
08:38.4
sa People Power Monument.
08:39.7
Nag-away silang magkapatid.
08:44.5
bakit niya nire-recognize
08:47.3
naglaba siya ng statement?
08:52.9
padala siya ng mga
08:56.0
medyo nag-umatras siya.
08:58.3
Dineclare niya na
08:59.7
hindi na non-working
09:01.2
holiday ang ETSA.
09:03.5
yung message niya
09:06.0
kailangan pag-aralang
09:07.7
maige yung history.
09:13.7
Marcos dictatorship
09:15.1
at yung pagkabagsak
09:16.7
sa Marcos dictatorship
09:18.9
in a different light.
09:22.9
The other side of history.
09:27.3
si Sarah nagsalita
09:28.8
na praising ETSA,
09:31.1
After niya banatan
09:33.1
ng kanyang tatay.
09:42.0
Pero ngayon lang nila
09:43.7
Ilang taon na mga
09:53.9
ni Vice President.
09:55.9
just a few hours,
10:01.3
hindi naman sila pwede
10:02.9
or ma-taken out of context
10:05.4
dahil statement nila yun eh.
10:09.6
yun yung nangyayari.
10:12.8
sa isang interview
10:21.5
sinusubokang i-coop
10:26.4
traditional opposition
10:28.2
nitong bagong opposition,
10:32.9
Liberal Party President
10:36.6
anti-Chacha position,
10:44.3
Praising yung call
10:45.9
Senator Juntiveros
10:49.0
mag-drug test pareho
11:03.5
yung bagong opposition
11:05.6
at saka yung dating
11:14.0
itong positioning
11:20.3
Magulo lang talaga
11:21.9
magulo lang talaga si Digong.
11:24.8
yung mga vloggers nila,
11:25.9
imagine mo yung talking heads nila.
11:27.6
Like last January,
11:30.5
before the Davao rally,
11:36.6
walang pulburong video,
11:48.2
Inulit na uli ngayon,
11:52.2
at napaka-dignified daw.
11:55.8
it's a big non-sequitur.
11:57.3
Paano naman kinalaman
11:58.2
yung pagiging dignified
12:00.2
doon sa kanyang...
12:02.5
Dignified para drag addict.
12:04.1
Parang ganun bang gusto
12:07.7
Tapos sabi pa niya
12:08.6
na walang mistake
12:14.2
yung kanyang supporta
12:17.1
yung nagpapatuloy
12:18.2
yung kanyang supporta.
12:21.2
ito ba yung parang
12:22.1
military withdrawing support?
12:40.8
One is the moment.
12:42.3
EDSA as a defining moment
12:45.0
hindi lamang sa Pilipinas
12:46.3
kundi around the world.
12:55.2
anong sabi ni Gramchi?
13:03.0
the old order is dying
13:06.4
is yet to be born.
13:08.2
The twilight zone.
13:09.7
Yun yung transition.
13:11.1
Yun yung transition.
13:12.8
as liberal democratic institutions
13:14.8
na marami din tayong
13:19.2
hindi kasi pwedeng
13:22.0
banatan yung EDSA
13:24.1
Kailangan tignan mo siya
13:26.4
different aspects.
13:31.3
and the institutions
13:35.6
yung institutions
13:41.0
FBR for six years,
13:44.0
for almost three years,
13:48.5
nandyan si Digong
13:51.1
for almost two years.
13:54.7
EDSA institutions,
13:56.5
it's not entirely EDSA.
13:59.7
halo-halo na yan eh.
14:01.4
Perhaps the framework,
14:02.9
the 87th Constitution
14:05.5
But the substance,
14:07.0
hindi mo pwedeng sabihin
14:09.0
Mas marami nga yung
14:09.9
yung mga non-EDSA
14:11.9
forces yung nandyan.
14:15.6
what happened there is
14:20.5
there's a reason why
14:21.7
there's a reason,
14:22.7
yun ang pinanood.
14:23.1
Yung pinanood kong movie
14:25.4
It's not an easy movie
14:27.6
it's in Spanish language
14:28.6
if you're comfortable or not.
14:30.3
At mabilis mag-Espanyol
14:31.8
because Italian yung
14:32.9
background marami sa kanila.
14:35.6
the reason I asked that
14:38.5
dun sa Washington,
14:39.6
this time I had a little bit
14:40.5
more time on my hands
14:41.6
so I really spent more time
14:43.0
going to the monuments
14:45.1
And of all the monuments,
14:46.6
the one I spent most time in
14:47.9
is yung Supreme Court nila
14:49.5
sa Washington, DC.
14:50.8
It's a beautiful monument.
14:51.9
It's a gorgeous monument.
14:53.1
Twice ako bumalik.
14:54.7
Because there's a part there
14:56.4
I think sa likod siya
14:59.2
justice is the guardian
15:02.8
democratic freedom
15:04.4
functioning justice system.
15:06.0
That's my reading of it.
15:09.7
I don't go to US nowadays
15:15.2
kasi it's interesting.
15:17.3
the symbol of justice
15:18.8
tas andun yung US Congress
15:23.1
Yeah, alam na natin yan.
15:24.8
but just rewind a little bit.
15:29.1
guardian of liberty.
15:30.2
Meaning, you cannot really have
15:31.5
a functioning democracy,
15:33.7
if wala kang functioning
15:34.7
judicial systems.
15:37.0
So, don't you think,
15:39.2
this is one of the biggest
15:41.2
with what happened
15:43.4
You're absolutely right.
15:48.6
to use the Hegelian term.
15:50.6
Pero the problem is
15:51.3
was the follow-through.
15:54.9
and I discussed this
15:55.7
with Attorney Jokno,
15:57.3
which we'll discuss him
15:58.6
in the next episode
15:59.4
about the Senate slate
16:00.4
of the opposition,
16:01.7
is itong tinatawag natin
16:03.4
na legal deep state.
16:05.8
mga Marcos era judges,
16:10.3
Yung mga prosecutors
16:14.5
A lot of them just
16:15.3
were sticking around.
16:17.5
networks of law firms,
16:19.3
a lot of their sympathizers
16:21.1
in the education system.
16:22.6
So, if you look at it,
16:24.2
napaka-shallow yung
16:28.9
any successful revolution
16:30.5
has to have some element
16:32.1
of cleanup, right?
16:33.3
To put it nicely.
16:34.6
And for some reason,
16:35.5
one of the most important
16:39.0
which is the judicial system.
16:40.7
Ito ang basa ni Jokno.
16:42.5
And I agree to a certain degree
16:43.9
because yun nga eh,
16:45.2
what's going on here?
16:47.7
What's going on here
16:49.1
bakit hindi binigay na
16:50.6
at sapat na attention?
16:51.6
Considering we're a nation
16:53.7
Or baka dahil maraming lawyers
16:54.9
na-involve sa ETSA
16:55.7
takot sila mawalan sa...
16:56.8
You can't say wrong.
17:00.2
have the spirit of ETSA
17:01.5
when no one was held accountable
17:04.4
that made ETSA happen?
17:06.1
Like, it's crazy.
17:07.9
Yan yung debate namin
17:12.1
tsaka ni Patrick Paez.
17:14.0
Pilagdebatihan namin yan eh.
17:16.9
parang napaka-exe kasi
17:18.1
nung revolutionary government
17:22.5
doon sa one year na yan,
17:29.9
ng Marcos government,
17:31.3
including the dictatorship.
17:34.2
gumagawa ka ng bagong konstitusyon.
17:38.2
Dahil hindi mo pwedeng gamitin
17:39.6
yung old konstitusyon,
17:41.0
yung martial law konstitusyon.
17:42.7
At hindi yan madaling gawin.
17:44.2
Hindi yan kayang gawin
17:46.2
Tapos, one year lang
17:47.0
yung revolutionary period mo.
17:49.0
Kaya yung debate namin,
17:51.2
baka iba yung nangyari.
17:52.5
Kung ginawang two years.
17:54.5
Baka nakapagpakulong ka,
17:56.8
nakapag-incarcerate ka,
17:58.8
yung mga talagang human rights
18:02.1
yung mga warlords
18:03.9
na disband mo talaga.
18:06.1
Paano hindi mo talaga na disband eh?
18:07.5
Pinalutan mo yung mga local officials,
18:10.0
pero yung kanilang machinery
18:14.8
sabi naman ni Patrick ay,
18:17.6
kung anong dictatorial yan?
18:20.0
ganun naman talaga sa revolusyon.
18:22.5
Kailangan mo nang panahon
18:26.9
kung dictatorship yung panalitan mo.
18:29.3
Dahil you cannot reverse that overnight.
18:32.4
yung sinasabi mo,
18:33.6
yung justice system,
18:36.6
na talagang integrated
18:39.2
dun sa Marcos dictatorship
18:40.9
at marami ay mga corrupt,
18:44.2
in the pain ng mga warlords,
18:48.0
ng mga dynasties.
18:50.1
ang dami mong gagawin.
18:51.9
At ang natapos mo,
18:52.5
doon sa revolutionary government,
18:54.9
was the constitution.
18:58.0
nagkaroon ka ng 11 coup d'etat.
19:02.1
That was a good discussion we had
19:03.6
on the coup d'etat.
19:05.1
parang looking back,
19:07.5
yun ang pinagdebatihan namin,
19:09.5
baka kinakailangan na nag-extend ka
19:13.0
2 years of a revolutionary government
19:17.0
It's not the Bolsheviks.
19:20.3
Medyo forever yun.
19:22.3
sana all yung nangyara sa kanya.
19:24.3
I see where Patrick is coming from.
19:27.3
what we saw in France,
19:28.6
the French model,
19:29.8
is reign of terror,
19:32.3
Essentially like half,
19:33.7
a quarter of a century
19:40.2
end of Napoleonic wars.
19:42.6
That was a transition phase,
19:45.3
you can argue that actually
19:46.2
it's all the way to
19:47.2
late 19th century.
19:48.4
But we can have a debate about that.
19:49.8
But those revolutions
19:50.6
turned very ugly.
19:53.6
may revolutionary courts
19:55.0
na people were just
19:55.9
court martial and guillotine.
19:57.6
We saw a version of that
20:01.2
I can go on and on.
20:02.4
I don't think that's what we wanted.
20:04.5
Kaya nga sabi ko,
20:05.0
Pero nangyari sa atin
20:05.6
is the opposite, no?
20:07.7
Kaya nga sabi ko,
20:08.4
sana something more like
20:10.5
which is somewhere in the middle.
20:11.6
Hindi sila nakaroon ng crazy
20:13.5
and purging and killing military.
20:15.5
May pacted transition,
20:16.8
meaning they had to negotiate
20:17.8
with the generals
20:18.3
to give up the power.
20:19.9
Transition to civilian government
20:21.8
go back and do something about it.
20:24.3
at least the South African model
20:25.9
of truth and reconciliation commission.
20:28.6
Ang ginawa ni Mandela, diba?
20:30.4
There was a conciliation,
20:31.5
truth and reconciliation,
20:36.9
yung mga white Africans
20:40.1
in torture and violence
20:42.3
ma-reconciliation.
20:43.6
some people would say,
20:45.6
None of that happened, eh.
20:47.4
Ang problema big are,
20:49.4
after the fall of the dictatorship,
20:51.8
divided into two.
20:54.5
The Marcos loyalists,
20:56.7
Na ilalagaan ni Marcos,
20:58.6
the Fabian Bear Machinery,
21:04.1
to bring down Marcos,
21:05.7
but who wanted to create
21:07.2
a military junta.
21:08.7
So, itong dalawa,
21:13.7
sa loob ng military.
21:15.1
It was a people surprising,
21:17.5
Triggered by a mutiny,
21:19.8
which doesn't want
21:25.4
democratic arrangement.
21:29.7
was sa military junta.
21:31.2
So, napaka-crucial
21:32.3
yung coercive arm of the state
21:33.9
doon sa transition.
21:35.4
Kaya yung sinasabi kong
21:36.4
delicate transition,
21:41.7
God save the Queen,
21:43.6
Dahil very popular si
21:46.5
hindi lamang sa Pilipinas,
21:47.6
kundi around the world,
21:49.8
that they're trying to save
21:51.7
from the Communists.
21:54.0
ganun yung political narrative
21:55.8
Nung unang mga coup d'etat.
21:57.5
So, ang hirap, eh.
21:59.9
kung meron kang additional year,
22:01.6
it's just one year.
22:05.3
ng mga supporters
22:06.2
within the military.
22:09.4
yung head ng mga mutineers,
22:11.7
ginawa mong defense chief
22:12.9
who organized the coup
22:15.4
against the government.
22:17.4
So, makiwellian move yan,
22:18.7
keep your enemies close,
22:19.7
except you're not ready
22:20.7
for your enemy yet, right?
22:25.1
and some do-gooders,
22:26.9
some civil society,
22:30.6
hindi ganun ka-consolidated
22:32.4
yung one year mo.
22:34.2
Kaya nga sinasabi ko,
22:35.2
if naging two years yan,
22:37.8
mas marami kang nagawa.
22:39.3
Ni, wala ka na pakulong, eh.
22:41.9
Ang dami mong sinasabi na
22:43.5
or ang sinasabi mong
22:45.5
judicial killings.
22:48.0
pero wala ka na pakulong.
22:49.3
At pinabalik mo yung mga
22:55.2
and they almost won
22:57.6
presidential election.
22:59.7
If not for danding.
23:00.9
If not for danding run.
23:02.6
Kung nagsama sila,
23:03.7
tapos ka agad yung
23:06.4
yung EDSA mo, no?
23:08.4
and starting there,
23:10.2
yung mga cronies,
23:12.8
yung mga warlords,
23:15.2
yung mga Marco supporters.
23:16.8
They change colors.
23:18.3
They change political parties.
23:26.5
At tinanggap naman sila
23:29.1
And the rest is history.
23:31.3
Iyon yung nangyari.
23:32.6
Dahil wala ka man lang
23:36.6
there was no history.
23:38.1
Saan mo lang, Richard?
23:41.5
ng liberal democratic institutions
23:53.7
ng mga lumang forces
23:58.9
political loyalties.
24:02.0
pag sinabi mo na yung
24:05.3
ng liberal democratic institutions
24:10.8
Dahil marami nang
24:12.2
marami nagbalikan,
24:13.6
maraming nagbaliktaran.
24:19.3
ang pinakakon nalang
24:20.8
ang pinaka-EDSA forces
24:25.0
Na nakaaway din ni Corey
24:26.4
at saka ni Cardinal Sin
24:34.8
Because of pirma.
24:37.6
Yun lang talaga yung
24:38.6
pwede mong sabihin na
24:44.4
ang pwede mong sabihin na
25:01.2
pinalibing si Marcos.
25:03.1
ay isang bagong Marcos.
25:10.0
bagamat in-endorse
25:16.8
nag-away na sila.
25:17.8
Because of Chacha.
25:19.3
Because of Chacha.
25:21.2
yun lang ang gusto kong sabihin
25:24.2
the liberal democratic institutions
25:26.6
but part of the rat,
25:31.7
nagbalikan yung mga luma.
25:34.7
I want to talk about
25:35.6
the second original scene here.
25:37.1
I mean, the first original scene
25:38.0
was still the martial law,
25:39.9
But the second original scene
25:41.9
about the legacy of martial law
25:47.0
yung Tahrir Square moment.
25:50.4
And then the next morning,
25:53.9
And then the next morning,
25:55.1
back to zero, right?
25:56.0
You have to follow through.
25:57.5
It's the morning after.
25:59.8
were waiting on the wings.
26:05.7
Kaya hindi nagsuksid
26:07.0
yung mga Arab revolutions.
26:08.5
Kasi there was no follow through.
26:09.9
Tahrir Square moment
26:12.3
of international coverage.
26:13.5
And the next morning,
26:14.6
the organizational work
26:18.0
let me ask this question.
26:19.0
Balikan natin ulit si Corey.
26:20.4
God bless your soul.
26:22.4
I mean, I think she had
26:23.4
great intentions for the country.
26:24.6
I think she was a fundamentally
26:25.6
decent, good person.
26:27.1
But we're talking about
26:28.4
We're not talking about
26:29.1
very, very Machiavellian.
26:30.9
This is about statesmanship.
26:32.3
This is not about
26:34.7
attributes and all.
26:35.8
All that is important
26:38.3
To what degree was this
26:39.9
about Corey Aquino
26:41.9
overreading her mandate
26:43.6
as just a transitional
26:45.7
shepherding kind of
26:50.4
Because my sense is
26:52.1
if Ninoy were still around,
26:53.8
probably things would have
26:54.7
turned different, right?
26:55.5
Because Ninoy had a vision.
26:56.8
He had the political charisma
26:58.4
to bring groups together.
27:00.0
He would have the
27:00.9
comparative understanding.
27:02.3
I'm sure Ninoy would have
27:03.8
And he probably has
27:05.0
the rootlessness.
27:07.7
And shrewdnessness.
27:10.0
And you need operators.
27:12.0
Yeah, you need operators.
27:12.7
You're not going to send
27:13.6
some nice civil society guys
27:14.9
to take care of the bad generals.
27:16.8
You know what I'm saying?
27:17.7
You have to send someone
27:19.2
to take care of those things.
27:21.7
You need someone like Heydarn
27:23.7
ito yung mga case studies
27:24.7
hindi nag-work yan.
27:25.9
Let's do Argentina.
27:27.7
Let's do whatever.
27:28.6
So, for some reason
27:29.7
mukhang wala yan, no?
27:31.8
missing elements, no?
27:32.8
Yung gumawa niyan,
27:35.0
yung pinaka may kaunti
27:36.8
was Nene Pimentel.
27:38.5
Yung naging head ng DILG.
27:40.6
Siya yung nagtanggal
27:41.4
ng mga local officials.
27:45.5
ay masyadong mabait.
27:47.6
Mabait si Nene, no?
27:50.4
Yun yung kulang din
27:52.3
kay Nene Pimentel, no?
27:53.6
Kaya nabola siya ni Digong, eh.
27:57.2
Nabola siya ni Digong, no?
28:00.5
ang federalism, no?
28:04.5
Eh kaya naman siya
28:05.1
sinuportahan ni Nene Pimentel
28:06.5
because of federalism.
28:08.2
Ginamit lang ni Digong.
28:10.4
Kaya mabait kasi ni Nene, eh.
28:13.5
So, yan yung problema.
28:16.6
pinaka-political operator
28:20.4
Piping was there.
28:21.7
Pero wala namang position
28:29.3
sinuportahan niya si Mitra,
28:32.2
et cetera, et cetera.
28:34.2
wala talagang enforcer
28:39.7
Cory was the transition
28:44.4
fledgling transition
28:46.6
in spite of 11 coup d'etat.
28:54.5
Kaya, yun yung kanyang
28:56.3
Pero, afterwards,
28:58.9
hindi na yun yung
28:59.6
kanyang skill set, eh.
29:01.8
Hindi na yun yung
29:06.1
after the transition.
29:08.6
Ibang kasing mga tao
29:10.0
ang kailangan dyan, eh.
29:17.9
as well as sa national
29:20.3
yung coercive arm
29:23.9
yung coercive arm
29:27.4
The apparatus of the state
29:28.9
uniquely did that, eh.
29:37.4
The Marcos loyalists
29:40.6
who wanted to create
29:42.2
their own military
29:47.1
Yun yung naging problema.
29:50.8
I think this is the
29:53.7
a moralistic approach
29:57.5
everything is good and evil.
29:59.5
there's no question
30:01.0
was evil in many ways.
30:04.1
evil lang yung one side
30:06.1
santo yung kabila.
30:07.3
Kasi once you have
30:08.0
that kind of approach,
30:09.3
you forget the basics
30:10.3
of politics, right?
30:12.4
you need operators
30:13.2
to get things done.
30:14.2
You need to clean up
30:15.4
You need to do some
30:16.1
ruthless, shrewd,
30:18.9
You need to build
30:20.8
You need to build
30:21.4
the foundations of the state.
30:22.7
You need to properly
30:23.4
utilize the apparatus
30:25.7
Lahat ng mga minensyon natin.
30:27.9
Where do you think
30:28.5
this is coming from,
30:30.8
ang basa ko dito,
30:32.8
there was a vacuum
30:34.9
who comes to my mind
30:36.1
a perfect balance
30:39.1
And I'm not surprised
30:39.9
he was very successful,
30:41.2
Within a few years,
30:42.0
wala nang mga hudetas.
30:43.5
Medyo naayos niya.
30:44.5
Hindi lang nangyari
30:45.2
yung Asian financial crisis.
30:49.9
in even better light.
30:52.1
no offense to your boss,
30:54.9
given the circumstances,
30:56.4
did very, very good
30:57.2
and perhaps is one of
30:58.0
the best presidents
30:59.0
Yeah, FVR is basically
31:01.3
At may background siya
31:03.7
Ruthlessing siya,
31:05.1
He can talk with them,
31:06.9
He can talk with them,
31:10.3
international perspective,
31:14.9
Philippines 2000,
31:17.5
a political project
31:20.9
doon sa ating region,
31:22.6
the Tiger Economies,
31:27.8
may mga error siya
31:31.6
na hanggang ngayon,
31:32.2
binabayaran natin
31:33.9
The privatizations
31:47.0
hinaluan din niya yun,
31:48.7
Hinaluan din niya yun,
31:55.8
yung iyong bansa,
31:57.6
You have to strengthen
32:01.6
before you can really
32:10.1
baka doon siya nakulang
32:13.6
before you do that,
32:18.3
even on that one,
32:19.9
but to kind of...
32:21.4
I personally argue na
32:25.9
ng privatization episode
32:27.1
ng mga oligarchs.
32:28.7
did he have a choice?
32:31.8
babaksak na yung...
32:34.5
yung mga state-owned enterprises,
32:36.0
all of these things,
32:39.5
Corey had no time
32:41.7
the country was a mess
32:43.0
throughout the time
32:44.7
because the transition period
32:45.9
without the cleanup.
32:47.5
Ramos was really...
32:49.9
the train's going,
32:51.5
And at that point,
32:52.4
ang choice lang niya
32:53.1
itong mga oligarchs
32:56.6
You get what I'm saying?
32:57.1
I'm not apologizing for it.
32:58.5
I think it really went wrong.
32:59.8
And I think he should have
33:00.7
embraced the liabilities
33:03.1
that that brought about.
33:04.0
Parang sana yung namin niya.
33:05.1
But at the same time,
33:05.6
I'm thinking about it.
33:07.8
ang options niya,
33:08.8
by the time he took over,
33:10.5
the whole economy was
33:11.7
grinding to a halt,
33:13.9
Grabe yung mga blackouts,
33:18.3
So much of the basic
33:19.9
was just falling apart.
33:21.6
The energy system.
33:23.1
but you have a system
33:24.4
with a very strong president.
33:28.0
hindi na-maximize
33:34.7
to create an element
33:39.1
na magbe-benefit.
33:40.4
For lack of a better term,
33:41.7
yung ginawa ng Korean state
33:43.0
sa kanila mga Zaibatsu
33:44.2
or ginawa ng Japanese state
33:46.6
with their Keiretsu,
33:50.3
Hindi ko sinasabing gano'n, no?
33:51.7
Dahil iba, syempre,
33:52.5
yung history niya.
33:53.2
Medyo dictator time ba kasi yan, no?
33:54.8
Pero use the power
33:56.4
of the government,
33:59.0
to negotiate terms.
34:00.9
nagawin namin ito,
34:02.4
ito yung kapalit, no?
34:05.2
huwag naman onerous terms,
34:07.1
katulad sa energy.
34:09.7
binakamara natin, no?
34:12.0
na pag gumanda naman
34:13.4
ang ating energy framework,
34:17.9
hindi lang naman yung gobyerno
34:19.4
Labang, pati kayo.
34:20.1
So, gano'n naman yung sinasabi ko.
34:22.2
ang problema kasi,
34:25.1
wala naman siya kalanasan
34:25.9
sa governance, eh.
34:27.8
Nung panahon na yan, no?
34:29.9
yung kanyang sidekick,
34:32.8
ay hindi naman na talaga
34:35.9
He's an operator, no?
34:38.3
medyo kinapos din ng kaunti.
34:42.4
hindi naman niya inintegrate yun, eh.
34:44.1
Hindi naman niya kinuha yun, eh.
34:47.9
build the government
34:49.3
with minimal experience
34:53.4
Philippine Constabulary
34:55.3
is the longest-serving
34:58.4
Philippine Constabulary.
34:59.6
Yun yung kanyang skill set.
35:02.5
hindi mo niya masise,
35:03.4
pero sinasabi mo rin,
35:04.6
these codes have been better.
35:06.3
Yung negotiations.
35:08.4
I agree with you.
35:09.1
I agree with you.
35:09.5
I think some of the terms
35:11.2
for the national interest, no?
35:12.8
Na-compromise sa lang
35:13.7
yung national interest.
35:16.4
you know, really,
35:18.0
alam mo yung mga, like,
35:19.3
just waiting to get
35:20.5
their chunk of the meat,
35:21.9
I think we gave them
35:22.7
a little bit too much.
35:23.6
Actually, you're right about that.
35:24.9
Mas classic rent-seeking, eh.
35:27.8
I agree with you na
35:28.7
he could have done more
35:32.0
remember yung privatization
35:33.3
of the telephone sector?
35:37.5
he was using even
35:38.3
military intelligence
35:39.3
to intimidate some of
35:40.3
the other oligarchs, right?
35:42.0
To come along with
35:42.8
some of his infrastructure
35:43.7
modernization program.
35:44.9
I'm not gonna name names,
35:45.8
but you can guess,
35:46.7
kung man nire-refer ko dito.
35:49.3
ruthless if he needed to be
35:50.8
in terms of building
35:51.7
the infrastructure.
35:52.1
Dahil ang model niya
35:52.9
is the tiger economy.
35:54.5
At malaking element
35:57.4
is a strong government.
36:00.1
Even a ruthless government.
36:11.7
You have a strong state
36:15.5
Parang sinasabi ko lang,
36:17.1
pwedeng na-strengthen pa yun.
36:20.3
Dahil ang model mo
36:21.1
is tiger economy.
36:22.1
You cannot have a tiger economy
36:23.4
without a strong president
36:24.7
and a strong state.
36:28.2
but with the strength.
36:30.3
With the strength
36:31.0
of the government
36:34.0
Napakabay itong discussion,
36:36.0
two more questions
36:37.1
these are important ones.
36:41.8
The U.S. element.
36:44.0
Korea-Kines administration
36:45.3
would not have survived
36:46.3
if not for the intervention
36:47.5
of the U.S. military.
36:49.3
Having said that,
36:54.6
from the beginning pa lang.
36:55.8
You're absolutely right.
36:56.6
The civil-military relations
36:59.3
she didn't completely control.
37:00.8
But maybe she could have
37:01.8
leveraged the U.S. angle
37:03.0
to kind of bring them
37:04.1
into the line, right?
37:05.1
To kind of discipline
37:06.9
You know what I'm saying?
37:08.1
the good relationship
37:08.7
with the United States.
37:10.2
And parang patapos
37:11.1
ng Cold War dito.
37:14.2
This is not the 70s
37:16.3
Patapos ng Cold War
37:18.2
no one of course knew that
37:19.3
mabaksak ng Soviet Union
37:20.9
within a few years.
37:21.6
But nevertheless,
37:23.3
the environment perhaps
37:24.2
would have been more auspicious
37:25.6
if they leveraged
37:27.8
the U.S. military lines
37:29.3
to crush itong mga
37:33.5
let's just call it
37:36.3
military elements, right?
37:37.9
at the end of the day,
37:39.4
who saved Korea-Kino anyway.
37:41.0
If not for their interventions.
37:44.7
state visit sa U.S.,
37:48.0
ng kanyang speech?
37:52.6
all the Marcos debts.
37:54.3
Dapat humingi siya
37:55.2
ng counting breathing space.
37:57.4
Well, that's a disaster.
37:58.4
The good debtor model,
37:59.7
that's a total disaster.
38:01.3
Wala tayong resources,
38:02.9
wala tayong pera,
38:04.1
bagsak yung economy,
38:05.3
tapos magpupromisa ka
38:06.4
to pay all the debts,
38:08.2
all the Marcos debts.
38:10.1
ng breathing space.
38:12.2
Babayaran namin yan,
38:15.1
para maayos namin
38:17.0
yung aming ekonomiya
38:19.9
Look at the odious debt,
38:21.3
There are some debts
38:22.0
na we shouldn't be paying
38:23.9
kasi odious debt yan
38:27.1
Pero yun yung pala,
38:32.8
nag-take its toll
38:35.2
dun sa transition.
38:38.7
ang dami mong iniisip,
38:40.1
tapos nagbabayad ka pa
38:44.1
outflow of resources,
38:45.9
financial resources.
38:47.3
Yun lang sinasabi ko.
38:49.3
what could have been.
38:50.9
What could have been.
38:52.7
hirap din siya noon
38:53.7
dahil wala rin siyang
38:55.1
kalanasan sa governance,
38:56.3
wala rin siyang kalanasan
38:57.2
sa political economy.
39:00.7
dahil kinupkup sila
39:02.5
doon for several years
39:04.2
at tumulong naman.
39:07.0
Pero hindi masyadong
39:08.5
in terms of the economy.
39:12.1
with the Americans
39:13.0
during the transition.
39:15.8
masyadong tumulong.
39:19.3
I think in the case
39:21.9
of the national income
39:24.4
tapos ng Chinese Civil War.
39:27.2
if you look at many
39:28.4
from Middle East,
39:31.6
Yeah, they juiced out
39:33.3
They juiced out the U.S.
39:34.2
Hindi, the Japanese nga eh.
39:37.4
kasi the Japanese
39:38.1
didn't pay na too much
39:39.0
reparations to us and all
39:40.1
kasi sabi ng U.S.
39:40.8
Hindi, kayong priority
39:41.7
ayahan mo ng mga Pilipinas.
39:43.2
Andyan yung Russia.
39:45.1
hindi tayo magaling
39:45.9
in terms of making use
39:48.0
which we'll discuss
39:48.7
in a separate episode
39:49.6
mamaya pag usapan natin
39:50.7
Taiwan, West Philippine Sea.
39:52.3
But I want to just end it.
39:53.5
The other what if.
39:55.6
Ramos had more time?
39:57.7
nag-succeed yung kanyang
39:59.4
and we didn't have
40:02.7
things would have turned out?
40:03.5
Maybe Ronald Llamas
40:04.6
would not have become
40:05.4
the Secretary of Political Affairs
40:07.1
but I don't know.
40:08.4
I think Philippines
40:09.0
would have been in a better place
40:10.3
if Ramos had more time
40:12.3
to a parliamentary system.
40:14.5
Pero hindi ko sigurado
40:16.0
kung kaya nilabalan yung ERAP.
40:18.7
mas may fighting chance
40:27.3
talagang very popular
40:40.6
Ayun yung kanya nun eh.
40:41.8
Unstoppable siya eh.
40:43.2
Ayun yung problema nun eh.
40:45.4
Ano yung Suicide Squad?
40:49.7
sila Smith, di ba?
40:51.9
parang all-in-the-miss
40:53.1
and in-the-army, di ba?
40:56.9
I mean, people underestimate,
40:59.0
all of these ERAP jokes
40:59.9
but let's not forget
41:00.6
this guy was vice president,
41:04.1
shrewd politician,
41:05.1
very shrewd, shrewd politician,
41:07.9
may influencer-influencer
41:09.2
moment pa rin siya.
41:10.2
Street fighter yun.
41:12.5
Hindi yun bobo, no?
41:15.6
And he transformed
41:16.5
yung lahat ng atake sa kanya,
41:19.6
He made them positive.
41:23.7
he was already unstoppable
41:27.6
kung gano'n kabland
41:30.5
gano'n naman ka-exciting
41:33.4
So, gano'n yung labanan niya.
41:36.9
just end this episode,
41:38.8
loyalist si ERAP?
41:40.2
Couldn't they have
41:43.3
Diba, yun na lang.
41:44.5
if you can beat the guy,
41:46.4
for his background.
41:47.3
tinanggal siya as mayor.
41:48.7
Isa siya sa mga tinanggal.
41:51.4
At least na siya eh.
41:53.5
konektado yan sa transition.
41:57.4
yung revolutionary government,
41:58.7
perhaps the ERAPs of this world
42:00.2
would not have flourished.
42:02.5
Yun yung isang panjan.
42:05.7
Andami mga path dependency
42:07.1
because we didn't do this,
42:08.4
it came back to haunt us
42:09.6
in 5 to 10 years.
42:11.1
And in this case,
42:12.5
may BBM presidency na tayo.
42:14.9
thank you very much.
42:15.7
Pag-usapan natin still
42:16.9
the spirit of opposition
42:21.1
in terms of opposition.
42:22.5
Pag-usapan natin,
42:24.5
may slate ng opposition.
42:26.1
So let's talk about
42:26.8
the pros and cons of that
42:27.8
and things that are important
42:29.9
let's put on the strategies hat.
42:31.7
Thank you so much,
42:32.9
Sir Ronald Diamas.
42:33.7
This was kind of a memory trail,
42:35.6
historical memo or whatever.
42:37.7
But it's important, right?
42:39.7
seventh conversation podcast
42:41.4
I have had on ETSA.
42:42.7
But every time I discuss this,
42:44.0
new things come out.
42:45.0
Very interesting.
42:45.5
I had this with Cecilia.
42:47.3
friends from the left,
42:53.0
Kasi we want to be fair naman.
42:55.2
Madali naman in hindsight
42:56.3
to say this and that.
42:59.0
if you really studied history and all,
43:01.1
you wouldn't have allowed
43:02.3
the revolution to be so tame.
43:04.8
Masyadong tame eh.
43:08.8
You cannot have a polite revolution.
43:10.1
Nasabi ni Mao noon,
43:11.6
revolution is not like a party
43:12.9
or something like that.
43:13.7
But this was even worse than.
43:17.3
Oh, it's being polite.
43:18.4
Hindi pwede ganun.
43:19.2
Kailangan niyo naman operator.
43:20.5
Kaya nga lang sinaraming mo
43:21.4
yung French Revolution.
43:24.5
Hindi naman mangyayari.
43:26.0
Hindi naman mangyayari.
43:27.0
Hindi naman ganun.
43:28.0
We're not going for
43:29.1
a reign of terror.
43:30.5
sana naman may konting pitik,
43:34.0
puro na lang operators in power.
43:36.0
Kasi walang nangyayaring
43:36.9
totoong revolution.
43:38.3
Salamat, Sir Ronald.
