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00:01.2
Magandang araw po sa inyo lahat. Ako po si Christian S. Guerin.
00:26.1
Welcome po sa ating episode ngayong araw dito po sa ating Facts First Podcast.
00:31.6
Alam niyo po, dito po sa ating podcast, maraya po tayo mga pinag-uusapan.
00:35.7
Usually, may kinalaman po sa takbo ng politika, sa korupsyon, sa human rights, sa governance, etc.
00:43.7
Pero dun po sa mga talagang masugid na tagapakinig at tagapanood po natin,
00:48.8
alam po nila na isa po sa mga tinututukan nating issue dito ay yung Mindanao Peace Process.
00:53.6
In particular, ito po ang transition na nangyayari dito po sa Bangsa Moro Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao.
01:00.1
So para sa araw na ito, pag-uusapan po natin specifically yung tinatawag na decommissioning ng mga MILF combatants.
01:07.0
Alam niyo po, dahil nagkaroon po tayo ng landmark peace agreement between the Philippine government and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front in 2014.
01:14.6
Tapos in 2019, ay nabuo po yung Bago Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao, yung tinatawag na BARM.
01:21.0
Maraya po yung dapat na gawin.
01:23.6
During this crucial transition.
01:25.4
At alam po natin na yung kauna-unahang eleksyon dyan sa regyon ay gaganapin po sa 2025.
01:30.7
Pero isa po sa mga issues na dapat tutukan natin, yung yung decommissioning.
01:34.3
Dun po sa mga nakapanood noong Senate hearing noong early February,
01:41.6
naalala niyo po ba na nagkasagutan si na Peace Advisor Galvez at saka po si Carlito Galvez at saka po si Senator Rafi Tulfo
01:51.2
dahil nagkaroon po ng aligasyon.
01:53.6
Si Senator Tulfo, meron daw korupsyon doon sa decommissioning process.
01:59.8
Dahil alam niyo po, di ba, yung sa pagsuko o pag-surrender ng armas ng mga kombatan sa MILF,
02:06.2
dahil sila na nga po yung namumuno temporarily doon sa regional government,
02:11.2
meron pong kapalit yun na economic benefits kasama po roon cash.
02:14.1
So isa po sa mga tanong ni Senator Tulfo, bakit daw according to the figures by Secretary Galvez as of August last year,
02:23.6
26,132 yung nandecommission ng mga kombatans, pero ang armas daw na naisa uli pa lang o na-surrender dahil sa 4,625.
02:37.9
So pag-usapan natin yan na mas malali.
02:39.5
Meron po tayong dalawang panauhin ngayon na inimbitahan natin.
02:43.1
I'd like to welcome first to our program, si Professor Pancho Olara.
02:47.8
Isa po siyang babad na eksperto pagdating po niya sa middle of peace process.
02:52.7
Siya po yung Executive Director in Climate and Conflict Action Asia.
02:57.7
Dati rin po siyang Senior Policy Advisor ng International Alert Philippines.
03:02.3
Magandang araw po sa inyo, Professor Pancho.
03:07.8
Magandang hapon sa iyo, Christian, sa mga nakikinig.
03:11.8
Okay. Tapos kasama rin po natin ng isang veteranong legislator, abogado, book author,
03:19.6
nagin na natin pati historian.
03:22.7
At siya rin po ay ang dating senior member ng MILF Peace Panel.
03:28.5
I'd like to welcome again to our podcast, si Datu Atty. Mike Mastura.
03:33.7
Magandang gabi, sir. And thank you for joining.
03:35.7
Magandang araw po. And thank you for joining us at Facts First.
03:39.4
Magandang araw din po sa inyo, Christian at si Pancho.
03:47.1
Happy to be with you again, Christian.
03:50.6
Okay. Simulan po natin.
03:52.7
Ilatag po natin ng simple para maintindihan din po ng mga hindi lang mga taga-bangsa Moro yung binag-uusapan nating issue.
03:59.0
So una ko munang tatanungin si Professor Pancho.
04:01.6
Una-una, ano po ba ibig sabihin ang decommissioning na ito?
04:04.8
At bakit kasama po ito dito sa peace process between the Philippine government and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front, yung decommissioning?
04:13.7
So tutusin natin, yung kasunduan dito sa peace agreement na ito, meron tinatawag na aspeto ng normalization,
04:22.7
yung pagbabalik sa normal ng kabuhayan ng mga tao sa Mindanao, lalong-lalong na sa mga lugar kung saan maraming tunggalian at karahasan.
04:34.5
Kaya ang ibig sabihin ng normalization sa mga naging aspeto nun ay alisin natin yung digmaan, alisin natin yung karahasan.
04:42.8
At isang malaking aspeto nun ay paggamit ng mga barel.
04:47.4
Pero pag tinignan natin, siya ay hindi tumalima.
04:52.7
Ang kasunduan dito, dun sa classic na DDR framework na disarmament, demobilization, reintegration,
05:01.0
kasi sa simulat sa whole, ang naging kasunduan dito, hindi susunding yung modelo na iyon, lalo na when it comes to disarmament.
05:09.6
Ang napakahalaga rito ay yung pagdecommission, hindi ng barel, pero yung combatant.
05:14.4
So yung term na decommissioning actually refers to making the combatant become someone else,
05:22.5
hindi na siyang gerilya na may hawak ng barel, kung hindi siya ay produktibong manila lang o citizen ng ating bayan, ang bangsa-muro.
05:33.8
Yung barel, masok lang, may component ng pagdecommission ng isang combatant, yung pagbibigay niya ng kanyang barel.
05:42.7
Okay, so una gusto ko iliwanag yun.
05:45.1
I remember writing the first draft, asked by government at that time,
05:52.5
to come up with what would be something that would be a normalization and the weapons component.
05:59.8
And I did that, and I remember at that time, ang head pa ng panel ay si now Supreme Court Justice Leone, no?
06:09.4
And I gave him that, and I suggested, so many options within the literature,
06:16.0
pero the important thing was the decommissioning of the combatant, which means that, you know,
06:21.4
kasama po doon yung demobilization, ibig sabihin, yung pagkawalanan ng command structure ng military na MILF,
06:32.2
napapamulitan yun ng political structure, yan na, yung UBJP, political parties, etc.
06:40.0
So yung buwing dahilan doon, mahalaga sa isang kasunduan, pampamayamaan, yung pagtalakay ng ano ang magiging tinabukasan ng combatant,
06:51.4
kailangan gawin lahat para mapahusay ang kanyang bagong buhay at hindi siya ilagay sa panganib.
06:58.7
Kaya hindi pwede automatic na basta lang na i-disarm ang isang combatant para bumalik siya sa kanyang barrio na lahat ng kapitbahay niya armado at siya wala nang barel.
07:09.7
So yun yung mahabang, masyadong mahabang ako nandito.
07:12.8
Okay, marami tayong dapat ilatag dito sa issue na ito.
07:15.9
Sige, punta naman po kay Atty. Mike Mastura.
07:20.3
Tumbukin na natin yun.
07:21.4
Hindi lang naman si Sen. Tulfo yung unang nag-bring up ng issue na yan, although napaka-high profile ng confrontation na ginawa niya kay Sekretary Carnito Galvez.
07:29.5
Sinabi niya may corruption doon dahil kung titignan doon yung figures, 26,132 hinadikomission ng mga combatants, pero yung mga naisurrender daw ng mga firearms, nasa 4,625 lang.
07:42.8
E tapos sabi niya, e bakit binigyan ng ano yan, 100,000 pesos each cash.
07:47.6
Diba, yun yung kasama sa agreement.
07:51.4
Ano po ba yung kalaking discrepancy? Ano po ba yung tamang pagtingin dyan? Mukha ba may corruption kung ganyan yung, kung ang pagbubatayan po yung discrepancy?
08:02.6
First, in the first place, correlation yan.
08:09.5
Equation ay 26 persons, individuals, as against 4,600.
08:20.5
Firearms. So talaga namang malayo kung yun ang benchmark natin.
08:28.7
Now, doon sa pera, kasi hindi malinaw sa combatants yung kumpisa, they misunderstood, if they misunderstood, kung ganun ang pagsabi.
08:43.1
Kasi ang original, even ako, narinig ko yung 1 million.
08:50.5
Saan natin kukunin yung budget na ganyan?
08:56.6
So, sa madaling salita, very clear na mayroon smoke.
09:07.2
Paano mo i-reconcile yan?
09:10.6
Now, the second point about the individuals, wala namang ipapakita na listahan.
09:20.5
ng House Committee dahil ito sa Senate Committee ngayon palang naliwanagan yan.
09:30.8
Pero dati-dati sa House sinabi na na dapat meron listahan.
09:38.9
Sabi ni Secretary Galvez, ang listahan ay doon sa independent decommissioning body.
09:50.5
The last Senate hearing, makita natin na umapir or dumalo yung head ng body na yun,
10:06.4
decommissioning body. Independent ito.
10:09.2
So in the process, nasabi nila ay confidential.
10:15.9
Siguro hindi maganda yung word confidential.
10:20.5
ang importante dito, identity.
10:24.9
Sino ba talaga ang nag-decommission?
10:28.1
Hindi natin gusto marinig yung word surrender.
10:32.9
Ang gusto natin marinig, siya ay bumalik na sa aluoban ng magandang loob na pagbalik sa mainstream society natin.
10:46.4
Because yun ang tinatawag na,
10:51.7
Hindi normal yung pagka-ribelde.
10:54.7
Hindi normal yung pagka maging guerilla at saka lalabanin mo yung authority.
11:05.8
Normal yan kung nandiyan pa yung armed struggle.
11:10.7
Kasi meron din identity.
11:12.5
Yun ang ginamit ko when I was the lawyer and senior member of the panel.
11:21.4
Ito meron natin kung ano ang status ang MILF.
11:26.6
kasi lapat lahat may base ah.
11:29.6
as well as practice and convention.
11:33.3
Doon sa Convention on war,
11:37.1
meaning to see the Geneva Convention,
11:41.8
applies three categories.
11:46.9
MILF falls under the category of
11:50.1
pero siya ay non-state na armed.
11:53.4
Yun ang pagkaiba kasi mayroon ibang non-state
11:56.9
pero they are not engaged in armed struggle.
12:00.6
Ganon din yung NDF.
12:02.6
If you compare us, yung CCP,
12:06.6
they invoke that in the negotiation na sila ay may status.
12:11.8
Importante itong makita ng taong bayan Christian
12:16.9
dahil change of personality, change of identity is important here.
12:26.8
Kaya decommissioning means turn over your firearm,
12:31.7
if you have firearm, maaari mong i-retain yung personal firearm mo
12:39.7
pero susunod ka sa batas na magkaroon ka ng lisensya
12:44.6
tulad yung mga politicians na tinutukoy na warlords
12:51.6
pero marunong sila mag-registro ng kanilang mga firearms.
12:57.1
So ito, hindi sila dapat masanay na daladala kahit saan yung armas na yan.
13:07.8
In that change of identity, pagkaiba ng identity,
13:12.0
hindi na tila sila.
13:15.8
Halimbawa, pwede bang chief minister ka?
13:20.6
Pwede bang senior minister ka or OIC governor
13:25.6
na ikaw din ay commander of the BIAF, the Bangsamoro Armed Forces?
13:32.6
Hindi ata pwede yun.
13:34.3
Very inconsistent.
13:38.5
Again, enumeration.
13:40.1
You swore into the constitution.
13:46.0
Ang malaking puhang dyan, this is my additional point,
13:53.3
ay something went wrong with the
13:56.7
ng proseso ng hindi ito pardon kung hindi
14:02.8
ano, Pancho, meron proclamasyon at saka meron ng komisyon
14:10.5
na masunod natin.
14:14.4
Sa profesyon dito.
14:16.4
What am I referring to?
14:23.4
I'm not referring to the Amnesty International.
14:26.4
I'm referring to the process of amnesty.
14:29.4
Meaning to say, mawala sa record yung kanilang pag-rebelde
14:35.4
o paglaban o anuman krimen tungkol doon.
14:40.4
Of course, iba yung rape or, ah,
14:44.4
or common crimes, no?
14:46.4
Itong dapat tungkol sa pag-rebelde
14:50.4
o tungkol sa rebellion.
14:54.4
Napakalinaw po ng pagkakalatag ng issues
14:57.4
ng ating dalawang panauhin.
14:59.4
Punta po tayo rin sa napaka-importanting punto pa po.
15:02.4
Gaano ba ka-credible?
15:04.4
Legitimate o convincing itong decommissioning so far?
15:07.4
Alam natin merong independent decommissioning body
15:10.4
binubuo ng Turkey,
15:14.4
tsaka Government of the Philippines.
15:16.4
Pero doon po, balik tayo kay Professor Pancho.
15:19.4
Sa monitoring nyo, legit ba itong pag-surrender ng mga armas?
15:23.4
Yung pag-decommission ng ilang mga combatants?
15:26.4
And paano ba nadodouble check kaya kung totoong mga MILF combatants yan
15:30.4
at totoong baril nila yan?
15:32.4
At hindi naman, baka naman pangalawa, pangatlong baril
15:35.4
yung sinusurrender nila, yung pinakabulok.
15:37.4
Tsaka pangatlo, siksiko na.
15:39.4
Meron ba listahan talaga yan?
15:41.4
40,000 diba yung nasa figures nila dapat decommission?
15:44.4
Paano ba nadodouble check kung talagang MILF yan?
15:48.4
Well, simulan ko ito sa huli mong puntos.
15:52.4
Yung mismong 40,000 na yan, lumabas na sa Senate hearing.
15:57.4
Nakabatay lang yung isa-isang sulat na ipinadala ni Chair Moran sa Government,
16:03.4
indicating na ito yung bilang namin.
16:07.4
Wala kong alam ng proseso ng pagkumpirma niyang 40,000.
16:12.4
Ilang beses nang hiningi yung listahan ng 40,000 na yan pero wala bang lumalabas na talagang listahan.
16:19.4
Yung sinasabi ni William Hovland, yung Norwegian na nando sa Senado na meron silang listahan,
16:28.4
ay yun yung listahan ng mga taong nakatanggap lang.
16:31.4
Hindi yung buong 40,000.
16:34.4
Iliwanag natin yun.
16:36.4
Pangalawa, maraming itinanong.
16:38.4
Maraming babalikan ko yun.
16:40.4
Yung mga tinanong hindi sa quality ng mga firearms.
16:43.4
Marami rin problema doon kasi karamihan doon ay unserviceable na.
16:47.4
Bagamat sinasabi nila serviceable pa.
16:50.4
Papaliwanag ko later yun.
16:52.4
In short, dahil sa hindi maliwanag yung 40,000,
16:56.4
hindi rin maliwanag kung saan nanggaling yung from the 40,000, 12,000 ng DT Commission
17:02.4
at doon sa 12,000, yung kalahati lang actually ang pananagutan ng EPA.
17:08.4
Kasi yun lang raw ang pag-aari nila.
17:11.4
Kalahati nun ay pag-aari raw ng mga combatant at wala silang, hindi nila madi-decommission yun sa bawat combatant yun.
17:19.4
Because of all of these agreements…
17:22.4
Sir sorry, sorry lang ha for cutting off.
17:25.4
Yung punto na yan, hindi ba splitting hairs yun?
17:30.4
It is actually the biggest problem.
17:33.4
In fact Christian,
17:35.4
what I am amazed,
17:38.4
is that the government knew that this was a problem from long ago.
17:44.4
Ang dami na nagtanong nito.
17:46.4
Sinalyze na sila ng kongreso, ilabas yung pangalan eh.
17:50.4
Imbis na sabihin nila ganito talaga, wala pa yung pangalan, may proseso dyan.
17:54.4
Ang pamalalaman natin over time ang ginawa in stonewall, hindi nilabas.
17:59.4
Pangalawa, ang tagal nang tinatanong sa kanila,
18:02.4
bakit nga ganyan lang ang bilang ng barel
18:05.4
in contrast to the number of supposed combatants?
18:08.4
Imbis na ibaliwanan nila, ito yung mga problema.
18:11.4
Ang ginagawa, stonewall-less.
18:13.4
Di namin malilista.
18:14.4
In fact, yung pinakamalaking,
18:16.4
lumabas nga nung hearing eh,
18:18.4
ang binigay na dahilan pa, dahilan raw sa may mga sundalo
18:21.4
kung pupunta sa labanan na walang barel,
18:23.4
naghihintay na may tumumba,
18:25.4
tapos kukunin niya yung barel.
18:27.4
Have you heard a more ridiculous explanation?
18:31.4
lack of, you know,
18:34.4
walang consistency sa bilang ng members and bilang ng firearms.
18:39.4
In short, it is really incredible.
18:43.4
It is not credible at all.
18:46.4
It is actually a big problem.
18:49.4
What appalls me is that they did not even prepare an explanation
18:54.4
long before they went to the Senate.
18:57.4
Parang napaka-confident eh.
18:59.4
Kaya ang nangyari, ayun.
19:01.4
Tama yung lahat ng…
19:02.4
Actually, the irony of the situation is,
19:05.4
tama yung lahat ng mga questions niya eh.
19:08.4
Secret niya yung Senator Tulfo,
19:10.4
tsaka yung questions niya yung Senator Aimee eh.
19:13.4
Mga matindi nila alam ang context, no?
19:16.4
I'll give you another point.
19:18.4
Doon sa decommissioning ng mga barel na sinasabi.
19:22.4
Di ba sinabi nila doon sa Senate hearing,
19:24.4
lahat raw ay serviceable?
19:26.4
Wala sa kanilang sira?
19:28.4
They gave a different definition to what is serviceable eh.
19:32.4
The definition nila, there will be no unserviceable firearms.
19:36.4
Tinignan mo, we have pictures eh of the firearms.
19:39.4
Nakita mo talaga.
19:40.4
Walang stock, walang barel, wala ng firing pin.
19:43.4
Di ba hindi na serviceable?
19:45.4
Pero ang kanilang definition, as long as pwede naman gawin yan,
19:48.4
serviceable pa rin yan.
19:50.4
Number two, yun nga, yung quality of the firearms.
19:53.4
Even if you ask the IDB members,
19:56.4
I was in one of those sessions where they, you know,
20:00.4
so-called, ano eh, released the firearms.
20:03.4
And everyone was, you know, laughing behind their backs eh.
20:06.4
Kasi alam naman nila, yung mga barel na ano,
20:08.4
World War II, barang may shotgun pa.
20:12.4
Ganon. So ganon yung quality.
20:14.4
So from the quality of the firearms, the number of combatants,
20:17.4
what government is accountable for, talagang it's a, ano,
20:20.4
it does not, it is not consistent at all.
20:23.4
Does not make any sense.
20:26.4
there was no plan actually to deal with the guns
20:29.4
that are in the possession of members.
20:32.4
In the Senate hearing, suddenly they came out with SALW,
20:36.4
small arms and light weapons.
20:38.4
But the small arms and light weapons program is supposed to deal
20:41.4
for the wider number of firearms that are not registered in Mindanao.
20:46.4
It is not specifically good for the combatants
20:50.4
who are not, who own personal firearms.
20:53.4
And sabi nga ni Datu Mike,
20:56.4
they've already changed their identity.
21:00.4
if you are still in possession of firearms right now,
21:03.4
na walang registro,
21:05.4
you are committing a crime.
21:08.4
the stenciling process that we were talking about
21:11.4
is really a useless process.
21:14.4
You ask anyone in the firearms business,
21:17.4
ang kailangan mo is the process that everyone undertakes
21:21.4
under Republic Act 1591,
21:24.4
yung mismong barel ng barel,
21:27.4
yung forensic idadaan yan,
21:29.4
so that if it is used in any manner in the future,
21:34.4
the police will be able to trace the owner of the firearm.
21:39.4
That stenciling program does not rise to the level of 10591.
21:45.4
bakit hindi nalang in-implement kasi 10591?
21:54.4
Christian may kuntingkosyon lang dyan.
22:00.4
Kasi it was agreed that this will be done in phases.
22:12.4
So this is the last phase.
22:15.4
If you consider the 40,000,
22:20.4
Lawyers are always correlating.
22:23.4
Because law requires you to be broad in your perspective.
22:30.4
So if we correlate the 40,000,
22:32.4
ano mga benchmark dyan?
22:39.4
parang yung figure na binigay na 27 plus,
22:45.4
nandi dyan na yan.
22:48.4
So ngayon, third phase na tayo.
22:53.4
there should be new figures.
22:57.4
the promise of Secretary Galvez
23:00.4
was to the Senate
23:02.4
when Senator Amy Marcos
23:07.4
said you have to submit
23:09.4
for the chairman himself,
23:11.4
na si Senator Tulfo,
23:13.4
na we want to see you submit
23:19.4
Dyan sa second hearing,
23:21.4
I did not see it.
23:24.4
I think walang pagbabago nung figures
23:31.4
except people who came to attend the hearing.
23:44.4
I want to say that
23:49.4
playing for keeps?
23:52.4
That's an English expression, no?
23:55.4
Are they playing for keeps?
24:02.4
is that the correct
24:06.4
for giving more money?
24:10.4
tama yung sinabi ni
24:12.4
chairman of the Senate sa committee na yan,
24:20.4
ma-increase yung budget.
24:27.4
hindi na dapat increase budget
24:30.4
kundi decrease budget.
24:33.4
Kasi we are going normal.
24:36.4
I will make a general statement.
24:42.4
the way we think about
24:49.4
Let's look at the bigger picture.
24:51.4
We should change the way
24:53.4
we look at the peace process.
25:08.4
normalization track.
25:10.4
Decommissioning is only
25:12.4
an implementing mechanism
25:15.4
to the second one,
25:16.4
to the normalization.
25:19.4
ang perspective diyan,
25:21.4
hindi paramihan ng
25:24.4
No matter how many
25:25.4
baril ang i-turned in,
25:38.4
pag tanggap na naman ang pera,
25:39.4
ibibili na naman ng bagong
25:43.4
That is the cycle
25:47.4
the way we look at the
25:51.4
we should go back to,
25:53.4
we should talk more about
25:58.4
to bear firearms?
26:01.4
a constitutional provision
26:13.4
Constitutional Convention,
26:20.4
having said that,
27:01.4
must be looked at
27:02.4
because there are
27:22.4
and the World Bank
28:20.4
the European Union
30:10.4
this peace process.
30:40.2
possibility, baka naman ipambilin ng
30:41.9
baril uli. Tapos,
30:44.2
at the same time, sila'y namamahala dito
30:46.1
sa regional government.
30:48.2
Hindi mo parang naglulokohan tayo dito.
30:50.3
You get to enjoy your cake
30:52.1
and eat it too, for lack of a better
30:57.2
Idiomatic expression.
30:58.5
Kayo muna, Professor Pancho,
31:00.1
what do you think?
31:01.5
Gusto ko lang muna sabihin, tama yung sinabi
31:05.4
Are they playing for keeps?
31:09.4
arrangement na ito, mukhang
31:11.7
ang terms nila nun na gusto nila
31:13.5
ay in terms na tinulak nila
31:15.7
yun ang mamayani. Pero ang problem dyan is
31:18.0
whether or not it will lead
31:19.6
to the stability we want. Secondly,
31:22.2
there is data already, Dato Mike,
31:24.6
there are several
31:25.6
news articles that we already
31:27.8
used about last year, about
31:29.7
interviews with so-called
31:31.9
decommissioned combatants
31:33.3
who reported in interviews
31:36.0
that they had actually bought new
31:37.7
firearms with the monies
31:39.8
that they received, 100,000
31:41.7
or so. So that is already
31:43.5
a fact. It's happening on the ground.
31:46.5
Yung question about
31:49.7
I'd really like to throw that question
31:51.7
actually, Christian, to the
31:53.3
people from government
31:55.1
who are the main peace partners
31:57.7
and talking about OCAP
32:01.6
Galvez, and then of course
32:03.9
the Residential Assistant for Mindanao,
32:12.0
the Residential Assistant for Mindanao
32:14.8
is the last one that don't
32:24.6
negotiations, right
32:28.7
one is being asked to take
32:30.2
to be accountable for what is
32:32.5
happening, they seem to be
32:37.7
terms being pointed out
32:40.0
by the MI. So there is no
32:41.9
they're very lenient
32:44.6
in terms of, in fact,
32:46.4
that's the reason why they got into trouble
32:48.5
in the Senate. I think the Senators
32:50.4
were looking for people who would
32:52.5
say, yeah, well, there is a problem here.
32:55.2
We need to make sure that the
32:56.5
weapons are properly secured
32:57.9
and that we collect as many
33:00.6
weapons as we can
33:02.3
from the allowed number of
33:04.4
combatants that they claim to have.
33:07.7
But you're right, Christian.
33:09.5
What is really the truth is
33:11.1
we don't think they have 40,000
33:13.3
combatants. We think
33:15.3
they have combatants with relatives
33:17.6
and their relatives have been included
33:19.4
in the list. Okay? Now, that
33:21.5
is not the first time. This is not the first time
33:23.4
that happened. We know that that is also
33:25.5
a fact in the case of the previous peace
33:27.5
agreement with NUR
33:31.1
I remember the study that
33:33.4
Mike done by IE Coronel
33:35.3
about that process and she documented
33:37.7
the same in that particular process.
33:40.0
And then I can understand why they would
33:42.0
not want to release the names
33:43.4
of their members as a rebel
33:46.1
force because the NVA does the same
33:48.1
in the negotiations I was involved
33:50.0
in. One of the conditions of JOMA
33:51.9
was we cannot give you the names of our combatants
33:54.2
until all of this is over or else
33:56.0
their lives will be...
33:58.0
So I can understand that.
33:59.6
But there has to be
34:01.5
some credible guarantee
34:03.4
that the 40,000 or
34:05.8
whatever number of weapons they
34:07.6
professed to have will be
34:09.3
decommissioned because they're the ones who put
34:11.6
forward that number.
34:13.8
Okay? And yes, we are in
34:15.6
the last phase. But what is
34:17.6
happening is in the last phase
34:19.6
the number of weapons are
34:21.5
not equivalent to the
34:23.6
number of combatants supposed to be
34:25.3
decommissioned. So we either have
34:27.6
to accept the fact that it won't happen anymore
34:29.8
and that was why I was
34:31.5
suggesting probably
34:32.6
as that to Mike said, decommissioning is
34:35.4
probably a city's
34:37.6
Has been undertaken. It's not the way to go.
34:41.7
position was from a long time ago
34:43.8
was why did we ever
34:45.4
even include a decommissioning component
34:48.0
when actually everyone,
34:51.1
is supposed to have the right to own
34:55.3
under the new law, in fact up to even
34:57.7
15 weapons and now
34:59.7
Filipino citizens can have
35:01.7
even the right to carry weapons outside their
35:03.7
homes and yet say
35:05.8
that the MILF combat
35:07.6
is decommissioned. We'll have to surrender
35:09.6
all these weapons. So we have to accept
35:11.7
the fact that Mindanao will continue
35:14.1
to have weapons. What
35:15.8
we want is that those weapons are properly
35:18.2
registered, that they
35:21.0
can be traced if they're
35:23.1
used for nefarious purposes and
35:25.5
if that is the case, then we can say that
35:27.6
okay, fine, that is what
35:29.5
as that to Mike has said,
35:31.6
let's look at the other positive things
35:33.8
in this peace process that people seem to be
35:37.6
input of socio-economic
35:39.7
benefits into different
35:43.6
you know, what's this,
35:45.5
rights, new laws that are
35:47.7
created on land, etc.
35:49.6
rather than just focus. Kaya lang,
35:53.9
remember that this was part
35:55.7
of the agreement they signed.
35:57.6
This was part of the social contract they
36:01.4
why a lot of Filipinos
36:03.2
are angry is because they
36:05.6
thought that this would happen. This was
36:07.6
a promise made to the
36:09.6
Filipino people and the rest.
36:11.6
That part of this would be a
36:13.6
decommissioning of weapons.
36:15.6
But that is the ugly truth, no?
36:17.6
That is the ugly truth. Ngayon kami,
36:29.6
So, we're being more
36:31.6
and more, trying to be more and more
36:33.6
realistic about it. What can we do?
36:35.6
So, ikaw rami nagsasabi, ganit na nalang,
36:37.5
kung ano kahit na iba.
36:39.5
Parehistro ninyo lahat ng
36:47.5
Dato, napaka-grim nung
36:49.5
natin na mga realidad
36:51.5
na nakikita natin. Sige, Dato.
36:55.5
the word, pulling each
36:57.5
other, was already used in the
36:59.5
Senate. Hindi na po yan
37:03.5
The word, there is
37:05.5
corruption here, except that
37:11.5
not the question.
37:13.5
There was no accusation.
37:15.5
But certainly, if you
37:17.5
look at the figures,
37:19.5
you will not be convinced.
37:21.5
You will not believe
37:25.5
what is the next thing
37:31.5
again, time is running
37:33.5
out because we are preparing
37:47.5
and again, that is the
37:49.5
first truck, is preparing
37:57.5
is this successful?
38:01.5
I am convinced that
38:19.5
Then we go back to
38:23.5
We should go into
38:41.5
Unless they learn
38:45.5
then it will still
38:55.5
Supreme Court because
39:05.5
line is the validity
39:15.5
talking about lawmaking
39:21.5
Samoro Transition Authority
39:35.5
there is very little
40:09.5
the Supreme Court
40:15.5
that are questioned
40:19.5
constitutional infirmity.
40:25.5
part of the playing
40:27.5
for keeps, meaning to say
40:29.5
another extension
40:39.5
agenda of extension.
40:51.5
postponement again.
40:55.5
put a rider to this
40:57.5
scenario that I am
41:01.5
The latest is the constitutional
41:05.5
that are being proposed.
41:11.5
BTA, the Bangsamoro Transition
41:15.5
proposed amendments
41:53.5
for the Bangsamoro
41:59.5
they are not even
42:01.5
transformed into a
42:03.5
parliament in the course of
42:05.5
3 plus 3, 6 years.
42:11.5
President, President
42:13.5
Bombo Marcos made it
42:17.5
there will be no more
42:19.5
postponement, that we should
42:21.5
prepare for the next
42:23.5
election and I think that
42:27.5
taking place now.
42:35.5
Yung susunod na tanong po
42:37.5
before we wrap this up.
42:39.5
Pag-usapan natin, very
42:41.5
telling yung mga binabanggit niya po,
42:43.5
the two gentlemen that we're speaking with
42:47.5
Meron pa bang paraan para masalvage itong
42:53.5
decommissioning process?
42:57.5
somehow follow the route yung binanggit niyo
42:59.5
Professor Pancho na parang tanggapin na lang yung
43:01.5
riyeridad na mukhang hindi natin
43:03.5
maaabot o maaatim yung
43:05.5
what was envisioned
43:07.5
in the specific peace agreement with the
43:09.5
MILF? What do you think?
43:11.5
Well, I think first, there
43:13.5
are still steps to be taken.
43:15.5
I would like to see government take
43:17.5
those steps that have been indicated
43:19.5
during the hearings and a lot of people
43:21.5
have been asking them to do.
43:23.5
Number one, there's still a need to
43:25.5
come up with an actual, accurate
43:27.5
listing of combatants.
43:29.5
Number two, that the weapons
43:31.5
that are actually decommissioned
43:33.5
are actually weapons. Number three,
43:35.5
that there are protection
43:37.5
guarantees that the funds that are
43:39.5
given are not used to procure new weapons.
43:43.5
there has to be a
43:47.5
these weapons in the lead up to
43:49.5
the 2025 elections.
43:51.5
That's the real connection.
43:53.5
That is what worries us
43:55.5
day and night. You will notice that
43:57.5
during the barangay elections recently
43:59.5
in the plebiscite,
44:01.5
the Bang Samoro registered the
44:03.5
bloodiest election on record.
44:05.5
We made that a point
44:07.5
and that was because of the extent
44:09.5
of the use of weapons across the region
44:11.5
and then we were criticized by
44:13.5
Cormelet only for the
44:15.5
Philippine National Police two weeks later
44:17.5
to declare that indeed we were right.
44:19.5
It was the bloodiest election
44:21.5
and we think that 2025
44:23.5
may be more dangerous
44:27.5
because of the issue of
44:29.5
weapons-free liberation and the failure
44:31.5
I will say it now
44:33.5
of the decommissioning process
44:35.5
as earlier envisioned.
44:41.5
we are waiting around the bush
44:47.5
decommissioning body who probably
44:49.5
were put on the spot
44:51.5
because I know that their
44:53.5
function does not include
44:57.5
provision of the fund.
44:59.5
They do not do that.
45:01.5
But they were made to be the ones
45:03.5
who actually did that.
45:05.5
The decommissioning body is there
45:07.5
to just receive the weapons
45:09.5
to witness the process.
45:11.5
So there are a lot of things
45:13.5
that need to be done
45:15.5
and someone has to demand accountability.
45:17.5
So in that way, therefore the work
45:19.5
being done by the senators
45:21.5
is in the right direction.
45:23.5
But what I am saying Christian is
45:25.5
eventually we come to a point
45:27.5
where we will secure
45:29.5
what can be secured
45:31.5
during the decommissioning process.
45:39.5
the entire peace agreement
45:41.5
on the issue of decommissioning.
45:43.5
Because I think much more
45:45.5
is at stake in terms of
45:47.5
this peace agreement.
45:49.5
But that is central
45:51.5
to getting people's support.
45:53.5
If we do not do this right,
45:55.5
if we do not have closure
45:57.5
proper to this decommissioning project
46:01.5
there will be no support
46:03.5
from the senators.
46:05.5
I remember being with Mike
46:07.5
in one of these meetings
46:09.5
about a year ago,
46:11.5
this conversation for peace.
46:13.5
And I was a bit struck
46:15.5
by the fact that in that meeting
46:17.5
none of the people who were there
46:21.5
that the MILF would hold on to power
46:25.5
And that is scary again
46:27.5
because all the political parties
46:29.5
and the other candidates
46:31.5
for the elections
46:35.5
and competing with
46:37.5
a political organization
46:39.5
that remains armed
46:43.5
despite being in power already
46:49.5
Dato, what do you think?
46:51.5
Can this be resolved?
46:53.5
And how serious a concern
46:55.5
are the decommissioning issues
46:57.5
that we're seeing now
46:59.5
in the peace process?
47:03.5
that decommissioning
47:05.5
is just a mechanism.
47:25.5
where the members
47:27.5
will be accountable
47:33.5
they are appointed
47:35.5
and they do not seem
47:39.5
that they are accountable
47:45.5
that they are passing
47:49.5
the Transition Authority.
47:51.5
They would still be liable
47:55.5
including liability
47:59.5
especially for funds
48:01.5
that have been allocated
48:21.5
that they will lose
49:01.5
why do you find them
49:09.5
Supreme Court decision
49:15.5
decommissioning process?
49:21.5
the decommissioning process
49:23.5
is not at all important
49:25.5
because if they are
49:27.5
no longer in power,
49:31.5
status quo will be
49:39.5
responsible to those
49:41.5
who elected them.
49:45.5
building and making
50:05.5
not decommissioned?
50:13.5
Will they go back
50:17.5
with the firearms
50:21.5
not decommissioning?
50:39.5
in their retirement
50:45.5
even in that position
50:49.5
There should, I repeat
50:51.5
as in the previous,
50:53.5
one head has already
50:55.5
rolled. There should
50:57.5
be a head that should
50:59.5
roll because the decommissioning
51:07.5
Trademark ni Datu Mike
51:09.5
itong ano. Natawa kayo
51:11.5
Professor Pancho.
51:13.5
You agree completely?
51:15.5
I agree completely.
51:17.5
Datu Mike has been
51:19.5
a mentor for a lot
51:25.5
it was a very interesting discussion po.
51:27.5
Medyo na napa-English na naman tayo.
51:29.5
Bandang dulo pero
51:31.5
at least malinaw po yung mga
51:33.5
issues na pinag-uusapan natin oh.
51:35.5
Yan ang challenge ko lang pag in-interview ko si
51:37.5
Atty. Mike eh. Talagang
51:39.5
very comfortable siya explaining in
51:41.5
English. Pero again, maraming maraming
51:43.5
salamat po sa inyong dalawa po kay
51:45.5
Professor Pancho Lara tsaka kay Datu
51:47.5
Atty. Mike Masturo for joining us dito.
51:49.5
Hindi mo po ito yung huling pag-uusap natin
51:51.5
dito sa podcast regarding this very important
51:53.5
issue. Marami po po tayong hihimayin
51:55.5
kaugnay po dito sa
51:57.5
Bangsamoro Transition at saka dito po
51:59.5
sa ongoing peace process sa Mindanao.
52:01.5
In the meantime, maraming maraming salamat po
52:03.5
sa inyong dalawa.
52:05.5
Salamat din po. Thank you, Mike.
52:09.5
Salamat po. Salamat.
52:13.5
Yan po mga nakausap natin sa
52:17.5
ngayong araw. Si na
52:19.5
Professor Pancho Lara at saka
52:23.5
Atty. Michael Masturo.
52:25.5
Alam niyo po, kung nasusundan
52:27.5
niyo po yung issue dyan sa Bangsamoro,
52:31.5
pinapaliwanan ko po ito.
52:33.5
Huwag niyo po isipin na yung pinag-uusapan po sa
52:35.5
Bangsamoro only concerns the people of the
52:37.5
Bangsamoro at wala tayong pakialam dito
52:39.5
sa Maynila or yung mga nanon po sa
52:41.5
labas ng Muslim in
52:43.5
Nanao. Napaka-importante po na
52:45.5
maging napaka-matagumpay, na
52:47.5
maging successful po yung
52:49.5
Bangsamoro peace process. Pero ang tanong,
52:51.5
the devil is in the details.
52:53.5
Kaya nga po pinag-uusapan natin specifically
52:55.5
ngayong araw na ito, hindi
52:57.5
missioning kasama po rin yung pag-surrender
52:59.5
ng mga firearms. Kasi kung
53:01.5
naglulukuhan po tayo dito, marami po
53:03.5
implications yan. Kung hindi
53:05.5
po nasusunod yung proseso
53:07.5
na dapat sinusunod, kaugnay po ito
53:09.5
sa peace agreement
53:13.5
gobyerno ng Pilipinas at saka po ng Moro
53:15.5
Islamic Liberation Front.
53:17.5
Well, in the meantime,
53:19.5
maraming maraming salamat po for joining
53:21.5
us today in our special
53:23.5
episode dito po sa ating Facts First
53:25.5
podcast. Ako po si Christian Esguerra.
53:27.5
Maraming maraming salamat po.
53:57.5
Thank you for watching!
